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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 23 Nov 2009 06:28

    Agreed. We can speculate on the feasibility of smugglers traveling independently, but it's made pretty clear in the books that the Guild have a monopoly on space travel. All the other various space ships mentioned are just to get people and goods from the planet's surface to the nearest Heighliner.

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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby trang » 23 Nov 2009 06:34

    Its akin to the Subway system or other Mass transit... ya pay your toll, jump on.. obey a few GENERIC RULES or your off da bus.

    If you want to suck spice gas, and attempt fold space with Holtzmans strapped to your back like Wille E. Coyote.. I'm sure some tried and died in the attempt.
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby The_Kat » 23 Nov 2009 08:10

    Hunchback Jack wrote:Agreed. We can speculate on the feasibility of smugglers traveling independently, but it's made pretty clear in the books that the Guild have a monopoly on space travel. All the other various space ships mentioned are just to get people and goods from the planet's surface to the nearest Heighliner.

    HBJ


    Ah thats it "Monopoly on space Travel" doesn't necessarly imply no other methods, if the other methods where dangerous of course they would have all the monopoly on travel, but what about transport? Thats different to travel, we're talking goods here, perhaps goods like nukes that the guild would not agree to transport to an enemies world, perhaps goods also that can be made in sufficently large quantities to mean loses are acceptable.

    trang wrote:Its akin to the Subway system or other Mass transit... ya pay your toll, jump on.. obey a few GENERIC RULES or your off da bus.


    I do think there is a very a good call for this to be the way smugglers move round, just paying for transport and the smuggling bit coming in by way of getting the goods to the highliner. However if i'm not mistaken it is never explicitly said they do this and like i said there is an argument that the way they are refered to in the books does mean they have the ability to transport small amounts of things outside of the guilds influence.

    trang wrote:If you want to suck spice gas, and attempt fold space with Holtzmans strapped to your back like Wille E. Coyote.. I'm sure some tried and died in the attempt.


    No need to suck the gas. The holtzmen generators are just a machine press the go button. Also isnt this what happens in the scattering, and also duncan does this in chapter house doesn't he. (Not read it in a while does he use presience to ensure safe arrival or does he just take the chance?)
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Nov 2009 08:25

    The_Kat wrote:No need to suck the gas. The holtzmen generators are just a machine press the go button. Also isnt this what happens in the scattering, and also duncan does this in chapter house doesn't he. (Not read it in a while does he use presience to ensure safe arrival or does he just take the chance?)


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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby DuneFishUK » 23 Nov 2009 10:42

    I always thought that transporting something outside of the Guild's influence probably involved bribes in the right places, forged paperwork for Imperial Customs and a legitimate front to work behind.

    A violation of the Great Convention is a big deal, and any official who accepted the bribe or allowed the transport of atomics would probably get fired, assassinated or lynched in the aftermath regardless of how much or little he knew.
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby Slugger » 24 Nov 2009 00:17

    Would the Guild actually require paperwork concerning the contents they're transporting, or could the Navigators simply "see" what they would be transporting with prescience?
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Nov 2009 07:48

    Slugger wrote:Would the Guild actually require paperwork concerning the contents they're transporting, or could the Navigators simply "see" what they would be transporting with prescience?



    I don't think prescience works like that. They see events, they're not omnipotent.

    I'm sure cargo is declared and there are manifests. The Guild is also a bank and would most likely insure the goods they transport. There would have to be records.
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby The_Kat » 24 Nov 2009 17:47

    Slugger wrote:Would the Guild actually require paperwork concerning the contents they're transporting, or could the Navigators simply "see" what they would be transporting with prescience?


    In dune messiah paul says when asked why he can't just use his prescience to find the tupile entiont (?) he says that in the act of actively searching for it he may hide it.
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Nov 2009 18:12

    "The Guild maintains that we must sign this treaty without knowing the
    precise location of the Tupile Entente," Stilgar said. "They've some support
    from Landsraad delegates."
    "What pressures have you brought to bear?" Irulan asked.
    "Those pressures which my Emperor has designated for this enterprise,"
    Stilgar said. The stiff formality of his reply contained all his disapproval of
    the Princess Consort.
    "My Lord and husband," Irulan said, turning to Paul, forcing him to
    acknowledge her.
    Emphasizing the titular difference in front of Chani, Paul thought, is a
    weakness. In such moments, he shared Stiliar's dislike for Irulan, but sympathy
    tempered his emotions. What was Irulan but a Bene Gesserit pawn?
    "Yes?" Paul said.
    Irulan stared at him. "If you withheld their melange . . ."
    Chani shook her head in dissent.
    "We tread with caution," Paul said. "Tupile remains the place of sanctuary
    for defeated Great Houses. It symbolizes a last resort, a final place of safety
    for all our subjects. Exposing the sanctuary makes it vulnerable."
    "If they can hide people they can hide other things," Stilgar rumbled. "An
    army, perhaps, or the beginnings of melange culture which --"
    "You don't back people into a corner," Alia said. "Not if you want them to
    remain peaceful." Ruefully, she saw that she'd been drawn into the contention
    which she'd foreseen.
    "So we've spent ten years of negotiation for nothing," Irulan said.
    "None of my brother's actions is for nothing," Alia said.
    Irulan picked up a scribe, gripped it with white-knuckled intensity. Paul
    saw her marshal emotional control in the Bene Gesserit way: the penetrating
    inward stare, deep breathing. He could almost hear her repeating the litany.
    Presently, she said: "What have we gained?"
    "We've kept the Guild off balance," Chani said.
    "We want to avoid a showdown confrontation with our enemies," Alia said. "We
    have no special desire to kill them. There's enough butchery going on under the
    Atreides banner."
    She feels it, too, Paul thought. Strange, what a sense of compelling
    responsibility they both felt for that brawling, idolatrous universe with its
    ecstasies of tranquility and wild motion. Must we protect them from themselves?
    he wondered. They play with nothingness every moment -- empty lives, empty
    words. They ask too much of me. His throat felt tight and full. How many moments
    would he lose? What sons? What dreams? Was it worth the price his vision had
    revealed? Who would ask the living of some far distant future, who would say to
    them: "But for Muad'dib, you would not be here."
    "Denying them their melange would solve nothing," Chani said. "So the
    Guild's navigators would lose their ability to see into timespace. Your Sisters
    of the Bene Gesserit would lose their truthsense. Some people might die before
    their time. Communication would break down. Who could be blamed?"
    "They wouldn't let it come to that," Irulan said.
    "Wouldn't they?" Chani asked. "Why not? Who could blame the Guild? They'd be
    helpless, demonstrably so."
    "We'll sign the treaty as it stands," Paul said.
    "M'Lord," Stilgar said, concentrating on his hands, "there is a question in
    our minds."
    "Yes?" Paul gave the old Fremen his full attention.
    "You have certain . . . powers," Stilgar said. "Can you not locate the
    Entente despite the Guild?"
    Powers! Paul thought. Stilgar couldn't just say: "You're prescient. Can't
    you trace a path in the future that leads to Tupile?"
    Paul looked at the golden surface of the table. Always the same problem: How
    could he express the limits of the inexpressible? Should he speak of
    fragmentation, the natural destiny of all power? How could someone who'd never
    experienced the spice change of prescience conceive an awareness containing no
    localized spacetime, no personal image-vector nor associated sensory captives?
    He looked at Alia, found her attention on Irulan. Alia sensed his movement,
    glanced at him, nodded toward Irulan. Ahhh, yes: any answer they gave would find
    its way into one of Irulan's special reports to the Bene Gesserit. They never
    gave up seeking an answer to their kwisatz haderach.
    Stilgar, though, deserved an answer of some kind. For that matter, so did
    Irulan.
    "The uninitiated try to conceive of prescience as obeying a Natural Law,"
    Paul said. He steepled his hands in front of him. "But it'd be just as correct
    to say it's heaven speaking to us, that being able to read the future is a
    harmonious act of man's being. In other words, prediction is a natural
    consequence in the wave of the present. It wears the guise of nature, you see.
    But such powers cannot be used from an attitude that prestates aims and
    purposes. Does a chip caught in the wave say where it's going? There's no cause
    and effect in the oracle. Causes become occasions of convections and
    confluences, places where the currents meet. Accepting prescience, you fill your
    being with concepts repugnant to the intellect. Your intellectual consciousness,
    therefore, rejects them. In rejecting, intellect becomes a part of the
    processes, and is subjugated."
    "You cannot do it?" Stilgar asked.
    "Were I to seek Tupile with prescience," Paul said, speaking directly to
    Irulan, "this might hide Tupile."
    "Chaos!" Irulan protested. "It has no . . . no . . . consistency."
    "I did say it obeys no Natural Law," Paul said.
    "Then there are limits to what you can see or do with your powers?" Irulan
    asked.
    Before Paul could answer, Alia said: "Dear Irulan, prescience has no limits.
    Not consistent? Consistency isn't a necessary aspect of the universe."
    "But he said . . ."
    "How can my brother give you explicit information about the limits of
    something which has no limits? The boundaries escape the intellect."
    That was a nasty thing for Alia to do, Paul thought. It would alarm Irulan,
    who had such a careful consciousness, so dependent upon values derived from
    precise limits. His gaze went to Korba, who sat in a pose of religious reverie -
    - listening with the soul. How could the Qizarate use this exchange? More
    religious mystery? Something to evoke awe? No doubt.
    "Then you'll sign the treaty in its present form?" Stilgar asked.
    Paul smiled. The issue of the oracle, by Stilgar's judgment, had been
    closed. Stilgar aimed only at victory, not at discovering truth. Peace, justice
    and a sound coinage -- these anchored Stilgar's universe. He wanted something
    visible and real -- a signature on a treaty.
    "I'll sign it," Paul said.
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby The_Kat » 26 Nov 2009 12:18

    Thanks freakzilla.

    Paul seems to imply that he can not force his presience to see tupile or that he can but with unpredictable results, although he may be saying it for irulen's benefit.

    I would state that as Scytale tells Edric [You are an infant compared. You crawl where they stride.] The navigators prescience is a lot more limited then pauls, if he can not look for tupile ,might not a navigator be able to see inside a cargo container. Also heighliners are truly big would a navigator have time to do prescient sweeps of all cargo.

    I think everyone has me convinced that the smugglers just smuggled things using Guild transport, rather than having their own transport.

    So how did the Great Houses plan on deploying atomics. Would the guild use their nuetrality to say that the transport of atomics for a great house does not make them implicit in there offensive use?
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby lotek » 26 Nov 2009 12:40

    The_Kat wrote:
    So how did the Great Houses plan on deploying atomics. Would the guild use their nuetrality to say that the transport of atomics for a great house does not make them implicit in there offensive use?


    yeah I would think so, the Guild are true hair splitters, and they would definitely hide behind their neutrality because that's what they do, they transport stuff and shy away from judgment as it would be a hinder on profit.

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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby Onasander » 05 May 2010 15:46

    I honestly don't think Tupile exists, I have a hunch it was a scam the Guild was doing to otherwise helpless victims- they have the family fortune packed with them- and are desperate, and put themselves into the Guild's care..... sure it worked out FINE! Think Tupile was just some spot in dead space where everyone was shoved out a airlock. No Mentat with half a mind is going to go along with this idea unless they were dead anyway.

    This can explain much of why Paul couldn't risk seeing it- the Spacing Guild not wanting to give it up- they knew the nature of the Imperium was changing- and the money was going to come from his regime- but they had to continue nuturing the lie as there were still countless houses outthere needing those services. Paul needed it too so he could make houses disappear. Furthermore- the very fears brought up- that the guild could build a army or another sort of resistance, was very real- all the more reason why NOT to threaten the guild, have all the navigators retreat to Tupile- or something to be made a equivalent- and for all intents and purposes with all those navigators there, turn it into a accidental No-Planet that Paul couldn't see nor easily reach.

    Paul's prescience only allowed him to see what could be. Leto's suicidal thoughts collapsing the vision of the Golden Path is indicative of this.... you could only see the potential- if you can't do something- it is not. A lie like Tupile sits in this awkwardness. Every advantage for Paul rested in leaving the status quo as is. If it was a lie- he lost nothing by not pursuing it- if it was real, he lost little by not ensuring his own defeat by seeking a path marked with success that didn't deal with that issue.

    As to the smugglers- logistics rule this question- and I have severe doubts people raiding the CHOAM's stock, or the Imperial stock, will be accepted by anyone.... the Spacing Guild had a obvious right and need to some of the spice- no spacing guild without it- one way or another- they are going to get theirs.... it's in their best interest.

    The question of logistics that arise is- how many smugglers can operate on the fringe- and afford to accompany the spice? Not many- if any. Acclimatization, contacts, and continual harvesting is a concern- they had the Fremen, the ruling House, Inspectors, and the Emperor to dodge.... leaving them a very tight margin to navigate..... especially as the Fremen were their competitors.

    The answer seems obvious to me- they used a unman ship to ship out their practically nonperishable spice out- the stuff lasts for thousands of years. The exact same issue with Paul trying to see Tupile arises with the Guild trying to see something they can't see in the first place- if the ships are stealth and cleverly sent out so they never make contact with the ship- the guild can only see what can potentially happen- and the smugglers made sure out of natural paranoia and cunning this would never be the case.

    This requires the ships to move sufficiently fast, in a chain (few ships sent out, a few sent in)- and to be retrieved by contacts. This also requires a pretty impressive black market banking system, and multiple parties- not unheard of in our time- sure they could pull it off in the future. You can use pre-holtzman, post Jihad ships for this.

    This idea by the way answers the Nuclear question. Smuggler stealth and old fashion ships no one can detect given their stealth properties. Mutually Assured Destruction during our cold war involved near immediate destruction via ICBMa- however, this isn't a concern for planets with secret bases floating about in a undisclosed location..... you bomb a planet- they will bomb the crap out of you anyway- not to mention a few other angry houses upset MAD didn't work...... which was always a concern.

    Holtzman navigation is only needed for folding space- they houses still possess the capacity for space travel- and there is no reason for them all to suddenly forget how to make post jihad, pre guild ships, or to make them point and aim in terms of navigation. Smugglers are going to love stealth, but there isn't going to be hundreds of them- and they certainly aren't going to ride around in Spacing Guild Ships- especially since the shuttles the houses used had windows and someone is going to notice ships heading the the guild ships not in the approved flight corridor- DUH! Sure that would of gone down well with Harkonnens looking out the window saying 'who the fuck is that?- who gave them clearance- I thought I ruled that planet down there- there is only one guild ship- and everyone left the same part of the planet together at about the same time- someone's invading my taxes, and are a security risk'!

    A planet like Dune- where everyone lives in pretty much the same part of the planet- and most are poor- and the jumps by the guild are going to be almost certainly scheduled like clockwork (at least for this planet)- people will notice. Thus- a unmanned flight (doesn't have to be computerized)- point, aim, and push is key. That's how the galaxy was seeded in the first place- no reason for it not to continue as such. A monopoly on tomato production in commercial agriculture doesn't prohibit back yard gardens- or for people to buck the legalities of the system and succeed anyway via cunning.

    I do find the smugglers interesting none the less- their relations to Leto I and Paul and how it had to of effected Paul's Jihads. A interstellar banking structure (needed for slow, long range smuggling to pay and coordinate), and a organization that knows how to procure and hide things would be of massive importance to the first steps of a interplanetary Jihad- no matter how much cooperation they got from the guild.
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    Re: Family atomics

    Postby Ampoliros » 06 May 2010 10:49

    Smugglers sell spice. Guild Buys Spice. All you need is something to lift it into orbit.


    Fast ships could come from Guild contacts who know that the smugglers will need a favor from time to time. Heck for all intents and purposes the smugglers already work for the Guild. Also, the guild is obsessed with security and has a MONOPOLY on space travel. Houses have orbital ships, but there is nothing to suggest, in fact there is everything to suggest, even in KJA's books, that the only way to get around is with the Guild. Could smugglers use pre-ftl or even pre-fold tech? Sure. Why would they want to? The Guild would have no problem getting access to duty-free supplies and with its MONOPOLY would have no problem at all 'hiding' it. But its not hidden, the Houses know the smugglers exist and they know killing all of them off is a losing battle (See: US Drug War). Unfortunately their hands are tied because they need interstellar trade to survive.

    Tupile a joke? I doubt it. If it was nothing but a way for the guild to rob people then it wouldn't remain much of a secret over 10,000 years. Also it wouldn't make much of a bargaining chip if the secret would destroy the guild. Paul couldn't expose it because he needs the guild to be trusted as a neutral party. If the Guild's "Escape to Tupile" program was exposed as nothing more than a 'murder and rob X fallen house scam' then the Guild would lose a lot of its power among the houses.
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