Freakzilla wrote: Serkanner wrote: Freakzilla wrote: inhuien wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Paul saw the Golden Path but never saw the extinction of humanity.
"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
So to him, the Golden Path was just an extremely cruel lesson.
So he only so the cause not the effect as it were, I wonderful if it took the preborn to perceive it's fullness. And re preventing the Second Jihad, IIRC the only possibility for that was when the Fremen troop were returning to Sietch Tabr, or was is it Cave of Birds, for the first time and it required the death of everyone whom was there.
I think you're right about it being Cave of Bird and yes, the whole troup would have had to die for word of the messiah not to get out.
Leto's prescience was orders of magnitude greater than Paul's it seems. Either Paul chose not to look or couldn't. However, the extinction would have occured before the time of Leto's death so your guess is as good as mine. Could Paul see 3,500 years into the future? There're no accounts of him looking even remotely that far into the future.
Wouldn't it be logical to assume Paul couldn't see any further then Leto's birth at all? Prescience clouded by an even greater oracle?
No, He just didn't see Leto. His Vision wasn't completely blinded until Leto was born and Duncan told him about it.
Isn't this the point? Leto II was invisible to Paul prior to his birth by the fact that Leto II would become an oracle. I'm becoming fairly certain that an oracle's presence is masked even before he's alive. Your argument that Leto II's power may have been orders of magnitudes greater than Paul's could be supported by the fact that the instant Leto II is born Paul becomes blind. Assuming their goals were similar, Leto II's vision would completely blanket out Paul's and the control would now be in Leto II's hands. I don't think Paul's blindness was caused by any choice of his...I think he realized when Leto II was born that his blindness was caused by Leto II taking control of the visions, and that he was finally relieved of it. Consider that a prescient can shield an area around him from being viewed. Now consider that Leto II's 'area' might have been the known universe, and that he could blanket everything from being seen if he so chose. Might this not be possible?
But once we assume that Leto II himself was the cause of Paul losing his prescience, we might realize why Paul didn't see the need for the Golden Path: maybe that course was hidden from him by Leto II himself. Maybe that path's existence was only created when Leto II was born in the first place. Prior to Leto II there might actually have been no need for the Golden Path as other than a cruel lesson, but since Leto II was willing to teach that lesson, it therefore would lead to the events that Leto II would need to prevent through that path. No Leto II might mean no need for the Golden Path as anything other than a cruel lesson.
Leto II does say the following to Paul:
Children of Dune wrote:"I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you choose?"
"You saw it," Leto agreed.
"Is your vision any better than mine?"
"Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps," Leto said.
I don't think Leto II is being falsely humble. I think this somewhat proves that the vision of the Golden Path as Leto II saw it could only exist when seen by Leto II, as a result of the things Leto II would choose to do. Leto II made both the Golden Path but also the need for it. Recall that the only proof we have that the extinction would have happened is by Leto II's word. We believe him, and yet we wonder whether he was responsible for it in the first place. Paul would never have done the Golden Path, and therefore that particular extinction might not have ever come to pass under his rule. On this ground I would say it's not at all fair to call Paul a coward. Being willing to walk away from one's empire, family, birthright, powers, and everything else just to try to make the best future for all - this is real heroism. Refusing to be a grand figure, that is real nobility. I think Paul is really the opposite of a coward, he's the most courageous personality in all the books. It takes courage to hate that which is terrible, to fear it. Lacking fear of terrible things - this isn't courage, it's sociopathy, a trait the Harkonnens had.