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    Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 14 Dec 2009 07:09

    I know it's been said before but it doesn't hurt to reformulate the obvious

    One of the major differences between the two stories is that in Dune it is forbidden to
    create “thinking machines”, while Star Wars has computers and androids just like
    every other science fiction movie. In my opinion, this is mainly because of the popularity
    of computers in sci-fi movies and possibly also because George Lucas had to
    change the script


    And if this still is not enough for you to believe that without Dune, there would actually
    be no Star Wars, I recommend this last piece of information to you: The original
    script for Star Wars was rejected by the studio because it was almost exactly the
    same story as Dune.
    George Lucas had to hire Gary Kurtz to help him re-write the
    script. Many drafts later they convinced the studio, that with this version they would
    not be sued for plagiarism by the Herbert Partnership.


    http://scytale.name/files/doc/essays/du ... arwars.pdf


    that with this version they would
    not be sued for plagiarism by the Herbert Partnership.

    now what could possibly give you that idea?
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby Idahopotato » 14 Dec 2009 16:55

    There is a samurai movie called in English "The Hidden Fortress". Star Wars is a space version rip off of that movie. In fact, in some editions there is a Lucas interview where he tries to deny ripping it off, but rather using elements of that movie for Star Wars. So perhaps Dune had some influence, but Hidden Fortress would have a better plagiarism case.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 14 Dec 2009 17:01

    do you have some links for that?

    I guess that all good stories have already been told and I am careful with DaVinci Code style mental shortcuts, so anything to get a new angle on that would be good

    (and I don't really care about plagiarism as long as it is recognized by whoever did it, what I don't like is a blatant rip off that cashes in on someone else's work)
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby Idahopotato » 14 Dec 2009 17:18

    I don't have any links. I saw it on a copy I had on VHS tape, that I obviously no longer have. I have been meaning to add that one to my dvd collection, but the wife hates samurai movies so I have to pick it up when I am shopping alone (which is almost never). In the interview, Lucas says something about hearing in film school that there are only like 7 story lines or plots, (I can't remember which term he used) and that every movie revolves around them. I am sure the interview is on youtube or something. I will look for it when I actually get some time.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby Omphalos » 14 Dec 2009 17:20

    If you are interested in a decent analysis of things that influenced Lucas when he made Star Wars, check this site out:

    http://moongadget.com/origins/index.html

    Those interested in Herbert's influence on Lucas pay close attention to this page:

    http://moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

    The author of that site has been trying to get a book deal for some time now. Im pretty surprised that she has not.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 14 Dec 2009 18:24

    thanks for that omph'
    i will definitely look it up :)

    and I will try to find that samuraï movie too ;)
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby SandChigger » 14 Dec 2009 19:04

    The Japanese flick is by Kurosawa and stars Mifune. :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Fortress
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby Idahopotato » 14 Dec 2009 19:53

    SandChigger wrote:The Japanese flick is by Kurosawa and stars Mifune. :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Fortress


    Haha good thing you added the link, because almost all samurai movies are Kurosawa flicks and star Toshiro Mifune.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby TheDukester » 14 Dec 2009 21:10

    You guys got lucky earlier when I typed up a scathing, 12-paragraph response to the original post ... and then deleted it.

    Short version: Star Wars is not Dune. Frank Herbert was never granted an exclusive license to write about the hero myth ... or to use a desert setting ... or to have his protagonist learn from mentor-figures.

    Lucas was far more influenced by the cinema serials that were popular in his youth and by what might be called "classic" American heroes from early SF, Western, and other tales. He was also smart enough (at that time, anyway) to play to his strengths, which included writing a halfway decent coming-of-age story (American Graffiti being the obvious example).

    Much of this is documented, for anyone wishing to look. Star Wars, obviously, generated a lot of press, much of which has subsequently been digitized. Also, practically the entire history of the various Star Wars scripts is available through a number of books. There's really no Dune to be found in most of them, unless the observer simply wants to see some "connections."

    I'm no Lucas apologist. I actually dislike the man quite a bit, frankly. He might be guilty of being an insufferable windbag much of the time, but that doesn't mean he ripped off Dune.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby Robspierre » 15 Dec 2009 01:15

    Watch the old Flash Gordon serials. Along with The Hidden Fortress you will find 90% of the material Lucas drew upon for the original trilogy. Throw in Campbell and you got the whole shebang.

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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 15 Dec 2009 05:07

    TheDukester wrote:You guys got lucky earlier when I typed up a scathing, 12-paragraph response to the original post ... and then deleted it.


    or did I get lucky :) ?

    Anyway I do not necessarily agree with that link, I just quoted the parts I found interesting: if you look closely the 1st quote is about a difference between SW and Dune. As for the 2nd quote, since it is quite a bold statement I was hoping someone could confirm that or not.

    lotek wrote:I guess that all good stories have already been told and I am careful with DaVinci Code style mental shortcuts, so anything to get a new angle on that would be good

    I truly believe that, I've always been facinated by the way some myths and legends seem to be shared all over the world(a bit like the genetic memory theory raised in Dune in fact)

    Omphalos wrote:If you are interested in a decent analysis of things that influenced Lucas when he made Star Wars, check this site out:

    http://moongadget.com/origins/index.html

    Those interested in Herbert's influence on Lucas pay close attention to this page:

    http://moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

    The author of that site has been trying to get a book deal for some time now. Im pretty surprised that she has not.


    half way through and thanks, this covers much more than one side and gives more insight into SW and through it Dune :)


    SandChigger wrote:The Japanese flick is by Kurosawa and stars Mifune. :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Fortress


    Kurosawa! I remember my parents going to see Rashomon at the theatre(in the 80s though) when I was a kid :) (yeah I know you don't like it when I say stuf like that ;) )
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 15 Dec 2009 07:28

    check this out! (a famous cartoon's SW parody)
    http://www.megavideo.com/?v=4VNWCNBF
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby TheDukester » 15 Dec 2009 11:26

    lotek wrote:I truly believe that, I've always been facinated by the way some myths and legends seem to be shared all over the world(a bit like the genetic memory theory raised in Dune in fact)

    In terms of "all stories come down to a few common elements," you might be interested in looking at Hero With 1,000 Faces, a pretty well-known book on the subject.

    In a bit of irony, the book is actually more well-known than ever now, mostly due to Lucas and Star Wars. There's a theory that's gained a bit of traction in the last few years that pretty much says, "This book is where Lucas got his Star Wars ideas." I'll reserve judgment on that, having not read Campbell's book. Also, as I touched on above, I think it's human nature to see connections if one wants to see connections.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 15 Dec 2009 11:35

    yup we have our internet conspirationists to remind us of that human fault

    As for "Hero With 1,000 Faces" I didn't know of it but it is actually mentionned as one of Lucas' influences in the link Omph' posted, and I think I'll give it a read as soon as I find a copy(good excuse to leave my computer and go searching those 2nd hand bookshops_now I sound like thehack don't I... Darn...)

    edit: lol your link is on amazon looks like I won't see the real world too soon :)
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby inhuien » 15 Dec 2009 12:25

    lotek wrote:check this out! (a famous cartoon's SW parody)
    http://www.megavideo.com/?v=4VNWCNBF

    This is asking to install some 3rd party POS in order to watch, what's the video called so's I can go looksee for it myself. :)
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 15 Dec 2009 13:18

    ow sorry I forgot I got an account at megavideo to avoid ads and time limit on videos...
    strange it would ask you that though!

    find the info here
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby inhuien » 15 Dec 2009 14:14

    Aha, I've just had another look and it was an effin' spammy redirect that I was focusing on, this time I got good old Pockerparty.shit.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 15 Dec 2009 15:23

    inhuien wrote:Aha, I've just had another look and it was an effin' spammy redirect that I was focusing on, this time I got good old Pockerparty.shit.

    yup but you don't get all that crap if you register
    i paid 20 quid for 3 month and since most uploaded vidz for streaming are hosted there it was money well spent

    plus i can download faster and don't have the one gig limit either
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby loremaster » 16 Dec 2009 13:27

    Omphalos wrote:If you are interested in a decent analysis of things that influenced Lucas when he made Star Wars, check this site out:

    http://moongadget.com/origins/index.html

    Those interested in Herbert's influence on Lucas pay close attention to this page:

    http://moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

    The author of that site has been trying to get a book deal for some time now. Im pretty surprised that she has not.


    I take much issue with a lot of what she says, both about the origins of shakespeare, and in particular her understanding of tragedy. She misrepresents dune also, as clearly demonstrated by this passage:

    Herbert borrowed several other riffs from Sophocles, including the blind prophet, the hero becoming blind at the death of his wife, and the flawed person being sent out into the wasteland to die (rather than burdening his family and tribe). Herbert also flirted with the subtheme of incest: if love can only exist between equals, there aren't enough superhumans on Arrakis to go around, so Atreides siblings tend to fall in love: Leto II and Ghani follow the Path of Light, refusing to act on their almost romantic love for each other. Alia is in love with Paul, so she arranges for him to chance upon her when she has no clothes on. This attempt to seduce Paul into an incestuous relationship is evidence that Alia has fallen to the Dark Path.


    I suspect she falsely attributes certain aspects of stories and cultural aspects also. Her discussion of Oedipus displays many examples of this. Certainly the idea of being blinded by the death of a spouse, abandoning injured parties to the desert etc, may be common to both books, but she can assert nothing more than that.

    The worst example is her assumptions about Delphi and the origins of prescience. I wouldnt claim to be a scholar but i'm sure there are many earlier examples of supposed fountains of knowledge, particularly of the future. There was an egyptian one, im sure.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby Seraphan » 22 Dec 2009 20:15

    I know for a fact that, at least visualy, there are a ton of stuff George Lucas ripped from the Heavy Metal comic magazine.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby DuneFishUK » 24 Dec 2009 08:59

    Alejandro Jodorowsky wrote:I liked fighting for Dune. We won almost all the battles, but we lost the war. The project was sabotaged in Hollywood. It was French and not American. Their message was not "Hollywood enough". There was intrigue, plunder. The storyboard was circulated amongst all the big studios. Later, the visual aspect of Star Wars strangely resembled our style.


    Star Wars plunders loads of things from an already cannibalistic genre and makes it fun.
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 24 Dec 2009 09:10

    at least that's what were the old ones, fun :)
    so in that case plundering or not they were fun to watch, no same excuse for the prequels though :mrgreen:
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Dec 2009 13:40

    Oh, I don't know. I thought that Christal Yodelson (Hayden Crystalson? Crying Shamerslum? Hagar Corriblesome? Whatever the fuck his name is!) kid's performance was pretty stunning.

    I mean, I facepalmed myself pretty much into a coma watching him. :D
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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby lotek » 26 Dec 2009 11:47

    SandChigger wrote:Oh, I don't know. I thought that Christal Yodelson (Hayden Crystalson? Crying Shamerslum? Hagar Corriblesome? Whatever the fuck his name is!) kid's performance was pretty stunning.

    I mean, I facepalmed myself pretty much into a coma watching him. :D


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    Re: Dune and Star Wars

    Postby SandChigger » 26 Dec 2009 13:55

    The Emissary feels our pain! Oooh! :shock:
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