Duncan in God Emperor

Image
    Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 22 Mar 2010 10:50

I was just going through GeoD and I came across something that I missed at first but caught my eye on my 3rd reading, Siona asked Duncan what Leto was like in his time and he said he never really knew him but he remembered the twins as babies so does this suggest that he was a Ghola of Hayt? It would follow seeing as the original Ghola was just the "repaired" flesh of the original duncan so it suggests that this Idaho would have the memories of the original and the
"Hayt" Ghola. Is this right or am I just completely brain mushed from trying to read this book :lol:

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby SandChigger » 22 Mar 2010 11:37

At the beginning of the book we have
Idaho remembered a strange child — twins, really: Leto and Ghanima, Paul's children, the children of Chani, who had died delivering them.

Hayt-Duncan dies fairly late in CoD, when the twins are nine years old, so he would remember them as something more than "babies"; hence the "strange child" bit.

A ghola of Hayt-Duncan would remember the lives of both the original Duncan and the first repaired-corpse ghola.

MrFlibble
Posts: 314
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 11:25

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby MrFlibble » 23 Mar 2010 10:09

In this respect, I have always found it a bit odd that in GEoD, Duncan never displays his Mentat abilities and seemingly does not have them at all (especially in his lack of self-control, which is unusual for a Mentat). Yet in Chapterhouse he recounts one of his lives during Leto II's time when he was ordered to suppress a Mentat school secretly run by the Bene Gesserit, and he says something like "Imagine me, a Mentat, having to carry out orders to bring down a Mentat training school".
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!

User avatar
inhuien
Posts: 3629
Joined: 09 Feb 2008 05:03
Location: right here as in not (all) there

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby inhuien » 23 Mar 2010 11:47

Hayt was mentat trained after the death of Duncan the Original and before the return of his original memories at the end of Messiah. So those abilities would have been lost to him or have I missed something, Did Hayt display Mentat abilities during Children, it's 20 years plus since I read it.

MrFlibble wrote: "Imagine me, a Mentat, having to carry out orders to bring down a Mentat training school".
That could simply have been researched/second hand information
Image

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 23 Mar 2010 11:51

So I wasnt going completely mad then? So every Ghola in GEoD should have mentat abilities? Seeing as by his own admition he remembers the twins yet he is not a mentat? I'd argue that mentat abilities are more than memories and that they'd require training but that is blown out of the water in the later books. It just strikes me as strange thats all, there seems to be a blur between the two.....HOWEVER it is said that the current Idaho is different from the rest Monao (spelling?) himself says that he is the most reckless of all the Duncans suggesting that there are differences between them all. Could this be a side effect of the original Ghola process? It was said that Hayt was the original body of Idaho "repaired" while the new Duncans in GEoD are grown from single cells of the original, perhaps the awakening process only brings out the original Duncan with memories of Hayt but none of the skills conditioned to him? Or is it because he cannot remember being Hayt who was conditioned as the mentat and not Duncan?

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 23 Mar 2010 11:53

inhuien wrote:Hayt was mentat trained after the death of Duncan the Original and before the return of his original memories at the end of Messiah. So those abilities would have been lost to him or have I missed something, Did Hayt display Mentat abilities during Children, it's 20 years plus since I read it.

MrFlibble wrote: "Imagine me, a Mentat, having to carry out orders to bring down a Mentat training school".
That could simply have been researched/second hand information


Yes he did, when he was in a council meeting with Alia and Irulan when Alia was convinced that there would be an attack on her person she had Duncan perform as a mentat, and it was stated several times that Duncan forced himself into mentat coldness as to not betray the fact that he knew what had happened to Alia.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby SandChigger » 23 Mar 2010 12:22

But that was still Hayt-Duncan, who had been trained as a Mentat.

Unless I've badly misunderstood something all these years, the awakening of the old memories does not wipe out the new personality. Otherwise there would be no serial accumulation of experience, no personality immortality, which is what the Tleilaxu Masheik were after, right?

This goes back to the old question of whether the ghola of a Reverend Mother would again be a Reverend Mother once her memories were awakened. :P

User avatar
inhuien
Posts: 3629
Joined: 09 Feb 2008 05:03
Location: right here as in not (all) there

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby inhuien » 23 Mar 2010 13:00

SandChigger wrote:Unless I've badly misunderstood something all these years, the awakening of the old memories does not wipe out the new personality. Otherwise there would be no serial accumulation of experience, no personality immortality, which is what the Tleilaxu Masheik were after, right?

But does ghola Teg or Duncan not grieve for the forthcoming loss of their own self. iirc it's young Duncan in the No-Globe. That of course could have been in-universe supposition.
Image

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 23 Mar 2010 13:03

SandChigger wrote:But that was still Hayt-Duncan, who had been trained as a Mentat.

Unless I've badly misunderstood something all these years, the awakening of the old memories does not wipe out the new personality. Otherwise there would be no serial accumulation of experience, no personality immortality, which is what the Tleilaxu Masheik were after, right?

This goes back to the old question of whether the ghola of a Reverend Mother would again be a Reverend Mother once her memories were awakened. :P


Yeah it was still Hayt which was in a sense the original body repaired after he died in the first book, so all Gholas after COD should be Gholas of Hayt if he remembers the twins. Now to your little nugget at the end there saying would a Revered Mother be a Reverend Mother, Heretics of Dune where Duncan recovers all his memories of past Gholas and is a mentat because he can remember all his past lives including the one where he was a mentat.

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2028
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby SadisticCynic » 23 Mar 2010 16:39

Laphtiya wrote:
SandChigger wrote:But that was still Hayt-Duncan, who had been trained as a Mentat.

Unless I've badly misunderstood something all these years, the awakening of the old memories does not wipe out the new personality. Otherwise there would be no serial accumulation of experience, no personality immortality, which is what the Tleilaxu Masheik were after, right?

This goes back to the old question of whether the ghola of a Reverend Mother would again be a Reverend Mother once her memories were awakened. :P


Yeah it was still Hayt which was in a sense the original body repaired after he died in the first book, so all Gholas after COD should be Gholas of Hayt if he remembers the twins. Now to your little nugget at the end there saying would a Revered Mother be a Reverend Mother, Heretics of Dune where Duncan recovers all his memories of past Gholas and is a mentat because he can remember all his past lives including the one where he was a mentat.


I think Chigger's point is that being a Reverend Mother requires extensive bodily training and the Agony, something which the ghola body will never have gone through. The same applies to Duncan as a Mentat; is he able to retrain himself from the memories? A similar example occurs when Leto II is playing the baliset; he has the memories but cannot quite play perfectly due to the fact that his body simply hasn't been trained to move in those ways.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 24 Mar 2010 06:31

Hmm was that not due to the fact that his body hadn't matured enough to play the baliset properly? But was it not mentioned at the start of Dune Messiah that they saved Idaho's body to not let his skills as a swordsman go to waste? And the fact that Hayt flew an ornithopter as good as Idaho so yes the fact that they can remember does allow them to use the skills imo.

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2028
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby SadisticCynic » 24 Mar 2010 09:11

Laphtiya wrote:Hmm was that not due to the fact that his body hadn't matured enough to play the baliset properly? But was it not mentioned at the start of Dune Messiah that they saved Idaho's body to not let his skills as a swordsman go to waste? And the fact that Hayt flew an ornithopter as good as Idaho so yes the fact that they can remember does allow them to use the skills imo.


True but remember they used Duncan's cadaver, not a body regrown from a few cells, thus the 'learned' muscle structure, etc would be the same whereas someone regrown from the cells may not have that 'learned' muscle tone. There is a slight distinction. A similar example would be that I know how to play the drums, but if I leave it too long without practising, I lose the edge on my skills and I can't perform the way I usually would.

(When I say 'learned' is there a better word/phrase for getting that point across?)
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 24 Mar 2010 11:15

SadisticCynic wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:Hmm was that not due to the fact that his body hadn't matured enough to play the baliset properly? But was it not mentioned at the start of Dune Messiah that they saved Idaho's body to not let his skills as a swordsman go to waste? And the fact that Hayt flew an ornithopter as good as Idaho so yes the fact that they can remember does allow them to use the skills imo.


True but remember they used Duncan's cadaver, not a body regrown from a few cells, thus the 'learned' muscle structure, etc would be the same whereas someone regrown from the cells may not have that 'learned' muscle tone. There is a slight distinction. A similar example would be that I know how to play the drums, but if I leave it too long without practising, I lose the edge on my skills and I can't perform the way I usually would.

(When I say 'learned' is there a better word/phrase for getting that point across?)


I get what you mean yes, but then it wouldnt work due to the fact that the Ghola from GEoD can clearly fight ok he is not as good as the new humans of the day but he clearly still has his swordsmanship skills as well as everything else that makes him who he is. The concept of muscle memory does not actually mean you muscles know what to do it is just a term for the fact that you've done a perticular thing so much that your mind easily performs the task you need and uses what it needs with little mental effort. I dont think this is something that is ever going to get solved though :P

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2028
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby SadisticCynic » 24 Mar 2010 17:38

Laphtiya wrote:
SadisticCynic wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:Hmm was that not due to the fact that his body hadn't matured enough to play the baliset properly? But was it not mentioned at the start of Dune Messiah that they saved Idaho's body to not let his skills as a swordsman go to waste? And the fact that Hayt flew an ornithopter as good as Idaho so yes the fact that they can remember does allow them to use the skills imo.


True but remember they used Duncan's cadaver, not a body regrown from a few cells, thus the 'learned' muscle structure, etc would be the same whereas someone regrown from the cells may not have that 'learned' muscle tone. There is a slight distinction. A similar example would be that I know how to play the drums, but if I leave it too long without practising, I lose the edge on my skills and I can't perform the way I usually would.

(When I say 'learned' is there a better word/phrase for getting that point across?)


I get what you mean yes, but then it wouldnt work due to the fact that the Ghola from GEoD can clearly fight ok he is not as good as the new humans of the day but he clearly still has his swordsmanship skills as well as everything else that makes him who he is. The concept of muscle memory does not actually mean you muscles know what to do it is just a term for the fact that you've done a perticular thing so much that your mind easily performs the task you need and uses what it needs with little mental effort. I dont think this is something that is ever going to get solved though :P


I know muscles don't actually learn I just couldn't think of a better way to express what I meant. As to the ghola in GEoD I imagine that he actually was retrained by the Tleilaxu. They taught him to be a Mentat in some lifetimes as well didn't they? I think he reminisces about being a Mentat and also a Truthsayer in some lifetimes in CH:D. (Where is Freak when you need him? :) )
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
nampigai
Posts: 350
Joined: 21 Oct 2009 12:18
Location: Chapterhouse

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby nampigai » 26 Mar 2010 12:13

MrFlibble wrote:In this respect, I have always found it a bit odd that in GEoD, Duncan never displays his Mentat abilities and seemingly does not have them at all (especially in his lack of self-control, which is unusual for a Mentat). Yet in Chapterhouse he recounts one of his lives during Leto II's time when he was ordered to suppress a Mentat school secretly run by the Bene Gesserit, and he says something like "Imagine me, a Mentat, having to carry out orders to bring down a Mentat training school".


I don't recall Duncan being a mentat in GEoD - however in Chapterhouse it states that in some of his many lifes he was trained as a mentat.
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
- Bene Gesserit Advice to Postulants

MrFlibble
Posts: 314
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 11:25

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby MrFlibble » 26 Mar 2010 13:42

Okay, first, I found the quote I mentioned above:
"I went to Wallach IX at the Tyrant's command," he said. "Oh, yes! I often thought of him as Tyrant. My orders were to suppress the Mentat school you thought you had hidden there."

Anteac-simulflow intruded: "I show you now the event of which he speaks."

"Consider," he said. "I, a Mentat, forced to suppress a school that trained people the way I was trained. I knew why he ordered it, of course, and so do you."

Simulflow poured it through her awareness: Order of Mentats, founded by Gilbertus Albans; temporary sanctuary with Bene Tleilax who hoped to incorporate them into Tleilaxu hegemony; spread into uncounted "seed schools"; suppressed by Leto II because they formed a nucleus of independent opposition; spread into the Scattering after the Famine.

Now, here's a more interesting one:
En route, Bellonda reviewed her assessment of Idaho's many lives, a record she had kept in Archives ready for quick retrieval. In the original and early gholas, his character had been dominated by impulsiveness. Quick to hate, quick to give loyalty. Later Idaho-gholas tempered this with cynicism but the underlying impulsiveness remained. The Tyrant had called it to action many times. Bellonda recognized a pattern.

He can be goaded by pride.

His long service to the Tyrant fascinated her. Not only had he been a Mentat several times but there was evidence he had been a Truthsayer in more than one incarnation.

However, an interesting observation is made in relation to ghola Teg:
He walked slowly beside Odrade, his hand sweaty in hers.

"Why are you so silent, Miles?"

"You're farmers," he said. "That's really what you Bene Gesserit do. "

She saw immediately what had happened, Mentat training coming out in him without his knowing. Best not explore that yet. "We are concerned about everything that grows, Miles. It was perceptive of you to see this."

So gholas do not lose their Mentat training, as it seems. Perhaps the phrase "he had been a Mentat several times" refers to the function, not to faculty, meaning that several Duncans were employed as Mentats by Leto II or had shown Mentat capabilities so that the Bene Gesserit recorded that. Otherwise it can be assumed that the Tleilaxu, after all, made certain modifications to the Duncans, probably following Leto II's orders. Or the Mentat potential in Duncan could be either developed into full talent with the restoration of the original memory, or it could be suppressed to never come to fruition.
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2028
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby SadisticCynic » 28 Mar 2010 11:20

MrFlibble wrote:Okay, first, I found the quote I mentioned above:
"I went to Wallach IX at the Tyrant's command," he said. "Oh, yes! I often thought of him as Tyrant. My orders were to suppress the Mentat school you thought you had hidden there."

Anteac-simulflow intruded: "I show you now the event of which he speaks."

"Consider," he said. "I, a Mentat, forced to suppress a school that trained people the way I was trained. I knew why he ordered it, of course, and so do you."

Simulflow poured it through her awareness: Order of Mentats, founded by Gilbertus Albans; temporary sanctuary with Bene Tleilax who hoped to incorporate them into Tleilaxu hegemony; spread into uncounted "seed schools"; suppressed by Leto II because they formed a nucleus of independent opposition; spread into the Scattering after the Famine.

Now, here's a more interesting one:
En route, Bellonda reviewed her assessment of Idaho's many lives, a record she had kept in Archives ready for quick retrieval. In the original and early gholas, his character had been dominated by impulsiveness. Quick to hate, quick to give loyalty. Later Idaho-gholas tempered this with cynicism but the underlying impulsiveness remained. The Tyrant had called it to action many times. Bellonda recognized a pattern.

He can be goaded by pride.

His long service to the Tyrant fascinated her. Not only had he been a Mentat several times but there was evidence he had been a Truthsayer in more than one incarnation.

However, an interesting observation is made in relation to ghola Teg:
He walked slowly beside Odrade, his hand sweaty in hers.

"Why are you so silent, Miles?"

"You're farmers," he said. "That's really what you Bene Gesserit do. "

She saw immediately what had happened, Mentat training coming out in him without his knowing. Best not explore that yet. "We are concerned about everything that grows, Miles. It was perceptive of you to see this."

So gholas do not lose their Mentat training, as it seems. Perhaps the phrase "he had been a Mentat several times" refers to the function, not to faculty, meaning that several Duncans were employed as Mentats by Leto II or had shown Mentat capabilities so that the Bene Gesserit recorded that. Otherwise it can be assumed that the Tleilaxu, after all, made certain modifications to the Duncans, probably following Leto II's orders. Or the Mentat potential in Duncan could be either developed into full talent with the restoration of the original memory, or it could be suppressed to never come to fruition.


Re that last bit: if a possible Mentat is not trained from a young age they won't develop the talent I think; isn't that why Paul was trained so young?
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

MrFlibble
Posts: 314
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 11:25

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby MrFlibble » 28 Mar 2010 17:06

SadisticCynic wrote:Re that last bit: if a possible Mentat is not trained from a young age they won't develop the talent I think; isn't that why Paul was trained so young?

Yes, but what we're talking about here is a ghola of a person who had been already trained as a Mentat. The only real difference between Teg and Duncan that Duncan had not bee trained as a Mentat in his pre-ghola life; yet if his memories and personality encompassing both the pre-ghola life and life as Hayt were restored, I supposed he would have got his Mentat training back along with other things he had learned.

Another noteworthy thing is that when a Duncan ghola remembers his moment of death during the awakening of his memories, it is always the fight with the Sardaukar in the cave, the memory from his pre-ghola life. But this could be explained by the fact that this moment was probably the strongest memory.
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!

User avatar
nampigai
Posts: 350
Joined: 21 Oct 2009 12:18
Location: Chapterhouse

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby nampigai » 29 Mar 2010 05:19

@MrFlibble

But the only Duncan that has the serial memories of all the Duncans is the one in Heretics and Chapterhouse. The others only have the “original” Duncans memories. Therefore nothing suggests that they should’ve all been mentats, seeing that the Duncan Idaho was never one (not that I remember).
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
- Bene Gesserit Advice to Postulants

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 29 Mar 2010 10:01

nampigai wrote:@MrFlibble

But the only Duncan that has the serial memories of all the Duncans is the one in Heretics and Chapterhouse. The others only have the “original” Duncans memories. Therefore nothing suggests that they should’ve all been mentats, seeing that the Duncan Idaho was never one (not that I remember).


Yes but remember Hayt was the regrown/repaired body of the original duncan, so all the cells that Leto II used were from this body therefore he should have the Hayt Ghola memories as well.

User avatar
nampigai
Posts: 350
Joined: 21 Oct 2009 12:18
Location: Chapterhouse

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby nampigai » 29 Mar 2010 10:09

Laphtiya wrote:
nampigai wrote:@MrFlibble

But the only Duncan that has the serial memories of all the Duncans is the one in Heretics and Chapterhouse. The others only have the “original” Duncans memories. Therefore nothing suggests that they should’ve all been mentats, seeing that the Duncan Idaho was never one (not that I remember).


Yes but remember Hayt was the regrown/repaired body of the original duncan, so all the cells that Leto II used were from this body therefore he should have the Hayt Ghola memories as well.


ahh didn't think of that.

I don't recall if the Duncans afterwards was grown from cells kept by the Tleilaxu - I know I may be grasping at straws but still?
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
- Bene Gesserit Advice to Postulants

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 29 Mar 2010 10:41

nampigai wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:
nampigai wrote:@MrFlibble

But the only Duncan that has the serial memories of all the Duncans is the one in Heretics and Chapterhouse. The others only have the “original” Duncans memories. Therefore nothing suggests that they should’ve all been mentats, seeing that the Duncan Idaho was never one (not that I remember).


Yes but remember Hayt was the regrown/repaired body of the original duncan, so all the cells that Leto II used were from this body therefore he should have the Hayt Ghola memories as well.


ahh didn't think of that.

I don't recall if the Duncans afterwards was grown from cells kept by the Tleilaxu - I know I may be grasping at straws but still?


All Gholas after Hayt were regrown from cells of the original. Now seeing as the original was revived as Hayt it should follow that the GEoD Gholas should have these memories. I suppose you could also argue that maybe cells were taken from the original and kept BUT seeing as this was beyond the Tlelaxu (spelling?) at the time to grow from cells why would they do this?

User avatar
nampigai
Posts: 350
Joined: 21 Oct 2009 12:18
Location: Chapterhouse

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby nampigai » 29 Mar 2010 10:45

well do we know for sure what the tleilaxu was and what they wasn't capable of? It's the most obvious "solution" in my book.

meh
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
- Bene Gesserit Advice to Postulants

User avatar
Laphtiya
Posts: 215
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 11:57
Location: In an outpost, on the edge of space!

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Laphtiya » 29 Mar 2010 13:49

True, they could have taken cells from the original before reviving the corpse of Idaho, but I always imagined that they basically had the original body on ice somewhere and just took cells from it when Leto demanded a new Ghola. Again it could depend on how the Gholas were conditioned before the reawakening of the original memories.

User avatar
Orthodox
Posts: 61
Joined: 29 Mar 2010 09:35

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Postby Orthodox » 29 Mar 2010 21:25

Image

I remember reading about on these forums that it was theorized Duncan was Asian?

I don't see Asian in this, from his 1985 work, "The Road to Dune".
Image
Any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere. Climb the mountain just a little bit to test it's a mountain. From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain. -- Frank Herbert


Return to “˱”