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Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 31 Mar 2010 08:54
by MrFlibble
Laphtiya wrote:True, they could have taken cells from the original before reviving the corpse of Idaho, but I always imagined that they basically had the original body on ice somewhere and just took cells from it when Leto demanded a new Ghola. Again it could depend on how the Gholas were conditioned before the reawakening of the original memories.

We're now back to square one, since if Duncan in GEoD was grown from the cells taken before he was brought back to life as Hayt, no way this Duncan could remember Leto and Ghanima.

BTW, an interesting question is when exactly the Tleilaxu started to grow gholas as clones from cells, rather than revive corpses in axolotl tanks.

Another noteworthy thing is that Bijaz, when learning of Duncan's restored memories, gleefully says he's going to get back all his past lives, implying that a) the axolotl regrowth process could be used multiple times with the same person and b) in such a case, it was possible to regain all of the memories even if previous ghola incarnations did not have their original memories awakened. The latter is a bit dubious since Duncan was the very first ghola to regain his former personality, but I guess since the Tleilaxu attempted this before, they had certain more or less viable theories about the whole process.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 Apr 2010 08:12
by Laphtiya
MrFlibble wrote:
Another noteworthy thing is that Bijaz, when learning of Duncan's restored memories, gleefully says he's going to get back all his past lives, implying that a) the axolotl regrowth process could be used multiple times with the same person and b) in such a case, it was possible to regain all of the memories even if previous ghola incarnations did not have their original memories awakened. The latter is a bit dubious since Duncan was the very first ghola to regain his former personality, but I guess since the Tleilaxu attempted this before, they had certain more or less viable theories about the whole process.



I think it is safe to assume that the Tleilaxu have been attempting this for a long time so I would have assumed that they have been trying revive themselves through this method since before Dune.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 Apr 2010 09:45
by lotek
Image


they have been trying and Duncan's compulsion to kill a loved one is the "lever" the Tleilaxu have been looking for.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 Apr 2010 11:36
by Freakzilla
Yes but remember Hayt was the regrown/repaired body of the original duncan, so all the cells that Leto II used were from this body therefore he should have the Hayt Ghola memories as well.


Leto II claimed his Duncans were from the original cells.

[edit] Make that commanded.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 07 Apr 2010 04:40
by Laphtiya
Thats true Freak but Hayt was the original cells of Idaho.....unless the Tleilaxu took samples from him before they created Hayt but I cant see a reason for doing that so I'd have to assume that all Duncan cells came from the original/Hayt body.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 07 Apr 2010 04:50
by Freakzilla
Laphtiya wrote:Thats true Freak but Hayt was the original cells of Idaho.....unless the Tleilaxu took samples from him before they created Hayt but I cant see a reason for doing that so I'd have to assume that all Duncan cells came from the original/Hayt body.


Hayt died in Sietch Tabr, it would be just as safe to assume Stilgar sent his body to the deathstills, his water going to Stilgar. Therefore, you have to assume the BT saved some original cells.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 07 Apr 2010 04:54
by Freakzilla
Also, Leto declared mentats illegal and Hayt was a mentat.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 07 Apr 2010 07:49
by Nekhrun
Freakzilla wrote:Also, Leto declared mentats illegal and Hayt was a mentat.

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen though. The BG still used them.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 07 Apr 2010 08:33
by Freakzilla
Leto tolerated the BG but he was very specific about his Duncans being the original and had the Fish Speakers study them for several days upon arrival to ensure they were unaltered.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 07 Apr 2010 14:12
by Orthodox
If I remember right, Duncan was supposed to breed with the Fish Speakers, wasn't he? Or did he?

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 07 Apr 2010 14:17
by Freakzilla
Orthodox wrote:If I remember right, Duncan was supposed to breed with the Fish Speakers, wasn't he? Or did he?


He was to be a control in the Atreides line. He did have sex with Fish Speakers but I think that was outside the official breeding program.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 14:58
by Onasander
I don't remember anything being said one way or the other deciding if all the Duncans came from the original or Hayt. Any swordsman is naturally going to have some Mentat capacity- the two artforms are not mutually exclusive, but interdependent. Anyone who studied a martial art would know what I am talking about..... strategy, tactics, situational awareness, and philosophy are a heavy portion of it. This being said, the one doesn't make you the other.

The Duncans are mentioned, and assumed in the gap between CofD and GEoD.... we don't know what Leto had up his sleeve in terms of expectations in each of those lives, he could of resurrected a 3rd generation one for all we know. It would be to Leto's obvious advantage to have at Duncan who knew who the hell he was though- coming to consciousness with your last memory being helping Paul and Jessica out in the Desert- and suddenly there is this big smelly, human headed worm infront of you isn't good- I don't care what he is told before his awakening on a intellectual level- that shit just isn't jiving.

However, being able to see Leto's face- and knowing he took after his after, and knowing the kid was a bit odd growing up and took too much after his father..... this would obviously be a good Duncan to bring back..... you don't want him too knowledgeable- and you certainly don't want one who tried to kill Leto in a pass life.

This however, as much of this thread- is pure conjecture and speculation.... and no one really knows what went on with the Duncans. I suspect plenty of room for variation as per Leto's needs and requests.


I will however go out on a limb though- into Jungian psychology, and suggest each Duncan- though identicle, landed in different times and circumstances- almost always shocked and disgusted, but each time for different reasons- and thus his personality typology would change in each life based on the patterns of his pre-resurrection values. It's not a matter of memories, but his shift in personality. It would be the equivalent of cloning you, and dropping you off in the reality of the movies of Aliens, Total Recall, Star Trek, and The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants- your going to grow and respond differently in each case- despite being a exacting clone each and every time. New people and circumstances, and situations to adapt to. We all grow, we all adapt.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 15:12
by Nekhrun
You're.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 16:04
by TheDukester
Nekhrun wrote:You're.

:lol:

Seconded.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 16:56
by SandChigger
I think I actually like "identicle", tho. :lol:

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 17:23
by Nekhrun
Back to the message.

Onasander wrote:I don't remember anything being said one way or the other deciding if all the Duncans came from the original or Hayt. Any swordsman is naturally going to have some Mentat capacity- the two artforms are not mutually exclusive, but interdependent. Anyone who studied a martial art would know what I am talking about..... strategy, tactics, situational awareness, and philosophy are a heavy portion of it. This being said, the one doesn't make you the other.

Most people who have studied a martial art are pricks. What an absolutely ridiculous statement that "Any swordsman is naturally going to have some Mentat capacity". Have you any understanding of what a Mentat is?

Onasander wrote:I will however go out on a limb though- into Jungian psychology...

And I'm out. :roll:

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 17:31
by SadisticCynic
Nekhrun wrote:
Onasander wrote:I will however go out on a limb though- into Jungian psychology...


And I'm out. :roll:


Jungian psychology is quite interesting actually; I've read a little and sometimes you do feel a little like you're ( :P ) reading Frank.

It's just that this guy makes it look bad...

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 17:38
by Nekhrun
SadisticCynic wrote:It's just that this guy makes it look bad...

:wink:

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 17:39
by TheDukester
Nekhrun wrote:Any swordsman ...

I've wondered if our new friend is a sword master ... if you follow my drift.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 17:43
by Nekhrun
TheDukester wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:Any swordsman ...

I've wondered if our new friend is a sword master ... if you follow my drift.

Have been wondering the same thing myself.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 19:22
by Tleszer
Nekhrun wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:Any swordsman ...

I've wondered if our new friend is a sword master ... if you follow my drift.

Have been wondering the same thing myself.

:think: :shifty: :shhh:



:lol: (Yes, I think I follow you.)

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 20:06
by SandChigger
I think Omph or Freak would have picked up on that from the IP address by now.

Yeah, the spelling- and grammar-challenged aspects are similar, and the stupidity, but that's about it.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 20:46
by Nekhrun
SandChigger wrote:Yeah, the spelling- and grammar-challenged aspects are similar, and the stupidity, but that's about it.

As far as I'm concerned all of those qualities might as well be shared by the same person because I feel the same way about them. :angry-screaming:

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 21:49
by Omphalos
It ain't that guy. He had an alter ego her (I think it was "Kevin J. Anderson" or something like that). I sent it a "fuck you, ass stain" PM a few weeks ago just to see what would happen. If he were able to get here again, he would have been unable to resist responding to that.

Re: Duncan in God Emperor

Posted: 05 May 2010 21:58
by TheDukester
Well, who would be able to resist that? :lol: