Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

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A Little Galach
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Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby A Little Galach » 07 Apr 2010 21:40

So I'm watching Star Trek II, and something ocurred to me that never has before. The scene where Captain Tyrel(sp?) refuses to kill Kirk and commit suicide despite the ingrained orders of Khan reminds me of Duncan defeating the Tlexiau programming in DM when asked to kill Paul.

Does anyone else see the parallel, or is it just because I finished DM last night? Is it possible that idea was lifted from Dune or is that a fairly common theme?

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Nekhrun
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby Nekhrun » 07 Apr 2010 21:46

I think humans are programmed to see patterns in things. We're meant to see connections in our experiences which has helped us survive as a species. We also have a finite number of stories to tell, we just do it in an infinite number of ways depending on times in which we live. Talented authors have a way of making material seem relevant and meaningful. This could've been one of those cases.

In some cases though I think certain untalented people just flat out plagiarize.
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Apr 2010 22:16

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lotek
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby lotek » 08 Apr 2010 04:05

A Little Galach wrote:So I'm watching Star Trek II, and something ocurred to me that never has before. The scene where Captain Tyrel(sp?) refuses to kill Kirk and commit suicide despite the ingrained orders of Khan reminds me of Duncan defeating the Tlexiau programming in DM when asked to kill Paul.

Does anyone else see the parallel, or is it just because I finished DM last night? Is it possible that idea was lifted from Dune or is that a fairly common theme?



there is also a difference, Hayt's compulsion is not set to really kill Paul, it was designed by the Tleilaxu to trigger the awakening of his ghola past.
(there must have been some back up plan in case that didn't work though)

The theme plot of a assassin programmed to kill is not specific to Dune, I'm pretty sure you will find it in every 80s detective/sf... TV series, in books and of course in conspiracy theories :)

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So there is indeed a parallel, but most likely it is a coincidence...
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby inhuien » 08 Apr 2010 04:43

Sorry lotek but I have to disagree with you here. Hayt's compulsion was exactly to kill Paul but the theory the BT had was that the submerged original persona would reassert itself to prevent the atrocity, which ofcourse it did.

Wonderful nexus of possibilities the end of DM is.
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby lotek » 08 Apr 2010 04:47

inhuien wrote:Sorry lotek but I have to disagree with you here. Hayt's compulsion was exactly to kill Paul but the theory the BT had was that the submerged original persona would reassert itself to prevent the atrocity, which ofcourse it did.


I meant the ultimate goal of the compulsion was not to kill Paul but to find a lever strong enough to force the ghola past out in the revived flesh.
So in fact we do agree :)

EDIT
don't be sorry though :)
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inhuien
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby inhuien » 08 Apr 2010 06:18

lotek wrote:
inhuien wrote:Sorry lotek but I have to disagree with you here. Hayt's compulsion was exactly to kill Paul but the theory the BT had was that the submerged original persona would reassert itself to prevent the atrocity, which ofcourse it did.


I meant the ultimate goal of the compulsion was not to kill Paul but to find a lever strong enough to force the ghola past out in the revived flesh.
So in fact we do agree :)

EDIT
don't be sorry though :)
Okay, now I understand. However the BT would have been satisfied with his death.


re ur edit, Born under the shadow of the Wee Free I'm sorry for everything, Sorry. :P
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lotek
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby lotek » 08 Apr 2010 06:41

inhuien wrote:Okay, now I understand. However the BT would have been satisfied with his death.


true enough, they probably would have kept his ghola cells until the moment they did find a way to open reach his past.


Didn't Scytale mention the Tleilaxu always leave a chance to their target to escape death, so would the fact that they were not sure Duncan would carry out his act count as that escape?
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inhuien
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby inhuien » 08 Apr 2010 06:49

iirc, the intended/anticipated escape route that the BT offered Paul was the simple rejection of Hayt.
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lotek
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby lotek » 08 Apr 2010 06:59

inhuien wrote:iirc, the intended/anticipated escape route that the BT offered Paul was the simple rejection of Hayt.



:lol:
sometimes the most simple answer is the right one, so much for circunvulated theories :)
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby A Little Galach » 08 Apr 2010 14:20

lotek wrote:So there is indeed a parallel, but most likely it is a coincidence...



After sleeping on it, I concur. The thought of Captain Kirk being involved in any sort of underhandedness is too much for me to consider.

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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Apr 2010 16:13

lotek wrote:
inhuien wrote:Sorry lotek but I have to disagree with you here. Hayt's compulsion was exactly to kill Paul but the theory the BT had was that the submerged original persona would reassert itself to prevent the atrocity, which ofcourse it did.


I meant the ultimate goal of the compulsion was not to kill Paul but to find a lever strong enough to force the ghola past out in the revived flesh.
So in fact we do agree :)

EDIT
don't be sorry though :)


I think you've got that backwards. The ultimate goal was to kill Paul, retrieving serial ghola memories was a bonus. The secondary goal was to have Paul abdicate.
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lotek
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby lotek » 08 Apr 2010 16:48

yes you're most probably right :)

I mean the primary objective could not have been the one thing they were not sure would happen.

If they had an inkling this method could be used, why go through all the trouble of setting a complicated plan up when they could have done it in the safety of their planet?
Unless they had a specific reason to have it that way, but that would mean that Duncan was already special as ghola material(idea I don't like to entertain as it flirts too much with the ultra KH thingy), but there is the fact Leto II will chose him as the one enduring companion for so long. I am quite far from GEoD(only began CoD and I see I need to go back on DM too)

Ideas within ideas!
Nice :)

my head hurts :mrgreen:
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby inhuien » 09 Apr 2010 05:03

lotek wrote:If they had an inkling this method could be used, why go through all the trouble of setting a complicated plan up when they could have done it in the safety of their planet?
My assumption is that previously they had tried it with Face Dancers/mock settings/actors/blah and failed. So the next gambit was in situ, it would be the logical next step. It was also a component of the abdication/Chani Ghola outcome illustrating to Paul successful memory recovery.
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Re: Dune Messiah parallel or plagiarism?

Postby lotek » 09 Apr 2010 05:20

inhuien wrote:
lotek wrote:If they had an inkling this method could be used, why go through all the trouble of setting a complicated plan up when they could have done it in the safety of their planet?
My assumption is that previously they had tried it with Face Dancers/mock settings/actors/blah and failed. So the next gambit was in situ, it would be the logical next step. It was also a component of the abdication/Chani Ghola outcome illustrating to Paul successful memory recovery.


yeah I think i get it, i just could not understand why the BT would want to risk exposure on the potential reawakening of a ghola, but they had to show it to Paul to tempt him into abdicating if the compulsion was overriden by Duncan.
Considering how the BT is/was secretive the scope of this gambit is truly awesome!

One small detail though, the BT were most likely not short of ghola test subjects, and it sounded strange they would not have made sure it really worked before sending Hayt.

Form Scytale's reaction it seems likely they were not sure it would work.
Of course you could argue that Hayt killing Paul and him becoming Duncan were two excluding possibilities, but there was always the odd chance someone else killed Hayt before he got to Paul, no?

I think that small detail/glitch in the plan could not have escaped the Tleilaxu(and therefore Frank), and it speaks more than anything else on the complexity of their society.
Spice is the worm's gonads.