The Spice, I'd like to know...

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D Pope
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby D Pope » 21 Dec 2010 03:06

I think we'd all agree that when an acolytes prana-bindu training (among other things) reaches a point when she can be expected to survive, she's ready for the agony. Sure, 'among other things' covers a lot of ground, but the point is that the psychokinesthetic mote-self happens in the agony and this gives RMs the power to manipulate chemistry.
Advanced BG pupils can manipulate their bodies even to the point of choosing the gender of their offspring but I don't think they are immune to poisons yet. Please correct me if this doesn't fit.

About spice and babies.
I don't remember if any babies were born to full Reverend Mothers. Any quotes would be greatly appreciated. Was Tegs Mother a full RM when he was born? Are Fremen babies born with the eyes of the Ibad?

Chigger makes a great point about a RM being able to, shall we say, stop spice at the cord thus preventing abomination. Given the control a RM has, I doubt that this would be a difficult thing.
We've all read about Alia, by the time Jessica learned the mote-self trick- it was too late.

Freak also has a great point about babies being born addicted to spice.
It's hard to imagine that a person capable of manipulating molecules on an atomic level would ever have to worry about addiction, but that's what Dune is based on. There must be some unique aspect of the spice that prevents fiddling on that level. So if the BG want a baby born spice free they wouldn't send a RM.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby SandChigger » 21 Dec 2010 04:35

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:I don't have online text here with me, but I remember Jessica, in a stressed out state, identifying the wailing in her mind as that of herself as a baby -when the 'unknown Bene Gesserit' who had been ordered to bear her had left her.

;)
FH in Dune wrote: But there had been a dream in this day's sleep, and she shivered at memory of it. She had held dreaming hands beneath sandflow where a name had been written: Duke Leto Atreides. The name had blurred with the sand and she had moved to restore it, but the first letter filled before the last was begun.

The sand would not stop.

Her dream became wailing: louder and louder. That ridiculous wailing—part of her mind had realized the sound was her own voice as a tiny child, little more than a baby. A woman not quite visible to memory was going away.

My unknown mother, Jessica thought. The Bene Gesserit who bore me and gave me to the Sisters because that's what she was commanded to do. Was she glad to rid herself of a Harkonnen child?

That's right after she and Paul have escaped into the desert and are in the stilltent, after he has told her they're Harkonnens but long before she changes the WoL among the Fremen.

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby SandChigger » 21 Dec 2010 04:50

D Pope wrote:Advanced BG pupils can manipulate their bodies even to the point of choosing the gender of their offspring

Which really, when you think about it, probably just means they were somehow able to divert spermatozoa on the basis of weight. ;)

Are Fremen babies born with the eyes of the Ibad?

Good question. Of course, Fremen are addicted to normal spice, which in normal dietary doses obviously isn't enough to cause Abomination. (You figure pregnant women stay out of the Tau orgy? ;) )

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby D Pope » 21 Dec 2010 05:00

I wondered about spice and babies, if Fremen aren't born blue within blue then addicted babies becomes moot.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Aquila ka-Hecate
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 21 Dec 2010 06:01

Thanks for the correct quotation, Chig. Know I can count on this board. :)

Fremen children develop the eyes of the Ibad by age 12 or so, don't they?

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Dec 2010 07:25

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:..who we know was Tandidia Nerus, not RM Mohiam.


That was her code name, don't you know BG use code namese? DUH! :roll: :P
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby SandChigger » 21 Dec 2010 07:56

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:Thanks for the correct quotation, Chig.

Afwan. One is glad to be of service. :)

Freakzilla wrote:
Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:..who we know was Tandidia Nerus, not RM Mohiam.

That was her code name, don't you know BG use code namese? DUH! :roll: :P

:lol: Well, either way, once Jessica became a RM, she would have known exactly who her mother was. ;)

Which makes it seem significant that she never bothered to rub the fact in, if Mohiam had been the one...

"Jessica!" the old woman screamed. "Silence him!"

"Silence your grandson yourself... MOTHER," Jessica said.

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Dec 2010 08:45

SandChigger wrote:
D Pope wrote:Advanced BG pupils can manipulate their bodies even to the point of choosing the gender of their offspring

Which really, when you think about it, probably just means they were somehow able to divert spermatozoa on the basis of weight. ;)


Actually, me and the wife started checking into this after she delivered her third boy. The key is in the fact that the male sperm swim slower than the females and there are various ways to exploit that.

SandChigger wrote:
Are Fremen babies born with the eyes of the Ibad?

Good question. Of course, Fremen are addicted to normal spice, which in normal dietary doses obviously isn't enough to cause Abomination. (You figure pregnant women stay out of the Tau orgy? ;) )


On spice-babies... IIRC, in the latter books there is mention of older or high ranking BG being allowed to keep their babies, I believe that was the case with Teg's mother. Teg recalls his mom making spice smoothies for him when he was a kid. The Atreides were bred to be sensitive to spice, too.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby SandChigger » 21 Dec 2010 10:38

Freakzilla wrote:Actually, me and the wife started checking into this after she delivered her third boy. The key is in the fact that the male sperm swim slower than the females and there are various ways to exploit that.

OK. I hadn't ever heard that about speed, actually. I was thinking that the males are slightly lighter than the females (Y chromosomes containing less genetic material than X).

Hmm... learn something every day! ;)

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Dec 2010 10:49

SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Actually, me and the wife started checking into this after she delivered her third boy. The key is in the fact that the male sperm swim slower than the females and there are various ways to exploit that.

OK. I hadn't ever heard that about speed, actually. I was thinking that the males are slightly lighter than the females (Y chromosomes containing less genetic material than X).

Hmm... learn something every day! ;)


I believe the trick was to time the ovulation with the speed of the sperm, or visa-versa. :wink:
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 21 Dec 2010 11:10

Freakzilla wrote:
I believe the trick was to time the ovulation with the speed of the sperm, or visa-versa. :wink:


...and then there's the ph of the womb, too- I believe it affects the wrigglers' speed depending on whether they're x-carrying or y-carrying. Which should be a piece of cake for a Bene Gesserit.

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby SandChigger » 21 Dec 2010 16:55

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:x-carrying or y-carrying

There! That's the way to phrase it, isn't it? :lol:

(There was something somehow wrong with "female sperm". ;) )

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby SadisticCynic » 21 Dec 2010 20:50

I was gonna say, except that I got here a little late, the difference in weight between an X or Y chromosome would be a pretty difficult thing to go by. Particle physics (admittedly on a much smaller scale) literally ignores gravity.

Really cool about the speed thing though, didn't know that...
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Serkanner » 22 Dec 2010 07:08

SandChigger wrote:
Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:x-carrying or y-carrying

There! That's the way to phrase it, isn't it? :lol:

(There was something somehow wrong with "female sperm". ;) )


I'm left-carrying.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby SandChigger » 22 Dec 2010 07:59

That's better than sent-packing. ;)

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Dec 2010 10:32

I'm leaning towards BG doing all their breeding before they become RMs, for example Lady Fenring is sent to seduce Feyd-Rautha in order to conceive an alternate line for the KH - not a RM, unless they are going to keep their children and raise them "inside" the BG, for example, Teg's mother. Otherwise, when RMs have sex, it's for imprinting purposes. For example, Lucilla... or for fun, like Sheeana.

Can anyone think of an example that doesn't fit that?
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby D Pope » 22 Dec 2010 12:07

I can buy that, seems to fit.This is a pretty good theory, do you think we're rationalizing or did Frank write it this way on purpose?

Freak wrote:Otherwise, when RMs have sex, it's for imprinting purposes. For example, Lucilla... or for fun, like Sheeana.

The BG were no strangers to recreational sex.
In my opinion, under the guise training, Frank intended Sheeana to be a freak..
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Dec 2010 13:09

D Pope wrote:I can buy that, seems to fit.This is a pretty good theory, do you think we're rationalizing or did Frank write it this way on purpose?


I hope he was thinking about it, especially when Murbella was cranking them out.

D Pope wrote:
Freak wrote:Otherwise, when RMs have sex, it's for imprinting purposes. For example, Lucilla... or for fun, like Sheeana.

The BG were no strangers to recreational sex.
In my opinion, under the guise training, Frank intended Sheeana to be a freak..


Yeah, I believe the BG got onto Sheeana about her Freakiness.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby HarryCanyon » 17 Jan 2011 20:58

Drinking worm bile sounds disgusting

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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Nekhrun » 17 Jan 2011 20:59

HarryCanyon wrote:Drinking worm bile sounds disgusting

I think it probably sounds like drinking a smoothie.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby D Pope » 18 Jan 2011 00:32

In Dune Messiah, Paul goes to Alias Fane to meet his guide during the Evening Rite.
When Alia comes out, she is handed a golden chalice;
"...Paul knew that the chalice contained the unaltered melange, the subtle poison, her sacrament of the oracle."
no wonder I confused spice with WoL. Unaltered Melange? I know the spice gets refined but changed like the Water?
Typo?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Freakzilla » 18 Jan 2011 03:40

D Pope wrote:In Dune Messiah, Paul goes to Alias Fane to meet his guide during the Evening Rite.
When Alia comes out, she is handed a golden chalice;
"...Paul knew that the chalice contained the unaltered melange, the subtle poison, her sacrament of the oracle."
no wonder I confused spice with WoL. Unaltered Melange? I know the spice gets refined but changed like the Water?
Typo?


That was supposed to be the unchanged WoL, I believe.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby D Pope » 18 Jan 2011 11:01

So you're going with a typo?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby Freakzilla » 18 Jan 2011 11:45

Maybe the editor did it? :?
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Re: The Spice, I'd like to know...

Postby inhuien » 18 Jan 2011 12:01

Yeah, it must have been an editorial contraction where Herbert used WoL and of course the contextual explanation ruined the passage's flow. That or I'm blowing smoke up yer ass. :)
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