Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

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chal
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Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby chal » 22 May 2011 17:12

Hi,

I've been reading and reading, I've read the original books, I have searched and searched, but I do not seem to be able to find the actual passages from the books that mention or imply the existance of this "Enemy".

Could any of you enlighten me?

Thank you.

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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 May 2011 18:00

Welcome, not a bad first post! :D

It's been a while since I last read Heretics and Chapterhouse, but as far as I know, the only real mention of them is in sections talking about the fact that the HM were fleeing something/someone. Some people believe that Daniel and Marty may have been involved in that "something" some people believe that they are not involved with what/whoever was after the HM. (It's also accepted that Daniel and Marty were clearly some sort of advanced Face Dancers, clearly NOT robots).
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2011 18:03

You won't find the phrase "Outside Enemy" anywhere in the original [read: REAL or ONLY] Dune books. It occurs only in Grunters and Sadworms, where it's the phrase the Hacks use to refer to the Enemy (or Ones) of Many Faces that the Honored Matres are fleeing in Heretics and Chapterhouse.

Hope that helps. And welcome to the board! :)
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Freakzilla » 22 May 2011 20:13

You see, there was no "outside". Only the "Old Empire" and The Scattering.

KJA's whole englobement by the machine fleet demonstrates writing by the conatively challenged.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 May 2011 20:26

If you're ever interested in reading posts that are nearly essays about why exactly the "outside enemy" scenario that KJABH put forth in Dune 7 was totally bad writing I'm sure I can point you towards some of my old posts, I think a bunch are on this website. (The highlights would be that the "omnius signal" could have only travelled between 10 and 15 thousand lightyears from it's source, which would have stuck Omnius right inside the Old Empire, not very far at all considering humanity had already spread out over millions of lightyears by the time of God Emperor of Dune, let alone The Scattering, which would have been unimaginable in size... so yeah, no bloody way Omnius ended up outside the Scattering, or could have even remotely posed any threat to it at all. I guess that's just one highlight, but it's a gooder!)
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby ULFsurfer » 22 May 2011 23:15

I checked towards the end of Chapterhouse where Odrade has a conversation with Dama and there on page 403 Odrade mentions that they are aware how the Honored Matres were driven back by their "enemies". Nothing about "outside" though. She keeps wondering who/what is making the HM to withdraw and in the same passage also realizes the true chaotic nature of them - perhaps connected?

Two pages earlier the other HM, Logno, calls the Bene Gesserit "The last enemy in the Million Planets", but I take that as something different.

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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Ampoliros » 23 May 2011 00:42

Isn't the "Outside Enemy" it supposed to be a bastardization of the enemy the HM are fleeing and the 'other/unknown' threats that justify the maintaining of Atomics? Seems like there was a preek somewhere that tried to argue that.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby D Pope » 23 May 2011 02:23

14evins treatment of the main characters alone shows that there is no need to look for any deep/hidden meaning or any connection to the Dune books. Lets face it, if he'd changed the names, there'd be no way to tell his 'work' was even inspired by Dune.
You're trying to rationalize an irrational phenominon, may as well figure out the lottery. :wink:
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby trang » 23 May 2011 03:33

the outside emeny is kevin j anderson and brian herbert.
"Long Live the Fighters", "Dragon.....the other white meat."

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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2011 08:10

Actually, Brian is on the inside.

Of Kevin's asshole.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2011 08:26

Nice!

The "Million Planets" was a nickname for the "Old Empire".

As far as I can figure out, the HM were running from a combination of AFD (advanced face dancers) and biological warfare, possibly from the AFD.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Hadi Benotto » 23 May 2011 09:47

Maybe that was one of the reasons why the HM were so interested in the BGs abilities, particularly cellular manipulation? If it was biological agents, the BG had ways of countering those internally so they would pose no problem.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2011 10:10

Hadi Benotto wrote:Maybe that was one of the reasons why the HM were so interested in the BGs abilities, particularly cellular manipulation? If it was biological agents, the BG had ways of countering those internally so they would pose no problem.


Exactly!
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Ampoliros » 23 May 2011 11:46

I also had the sensation that Frank was going to explore the use of worms as an environmental weapon: drop sandtrout on a planet and watch it slowly turn into a husk. The process is reversible, but at great expense.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2011 12:24

Ampoliros wrote:I also had the sensation that Frank was going to explore the use of worms as an environmental weapon: drop sandtrout on a planet and watch it slowly turn into a husk. The process is reversible, but at great expense.


I don't think so, that would also give them a spice supply. Post CH:D only BG planets would have spice.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Ampoliros » 23 May 2011 15:14

Not so much the BG doing it in scattering times, what I mean was if Frank was going to go way back into the origin of the worms, since he always hinted that no one knew where they came from or why. Spice is useless if you don't know how to use it, or even if its there. So an outside force could send sandtrout to worlds it mean to destroy/weaken.

Of course that does suggest that there is such an outside force, and I should shut my trap before KJA looks at this. Then again, we know they can't wait to bring in the Muadru.

And since I'm not Frank, I think my idea probably sounds as dumb as KJA's interpretation.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby chal » 23 May 2011 19:29

Hello again and thank you for your warm welcome!

ULFsurfer, I found the passage you referred to:
Odrade was not deflected by warnings from within. "But the hand that swatted us
would fester, and eventually, sickness would consume you."
It could not be stated plainer without specific details.
"Impossible!"
An orange glare.
"Do you think us unaware of how you were driven back here by your enemies?"
My most dangerous gambit.
Odrade watched it take effect. A dark scowl was not Dama's only visible response. Orange vanished, leaving her eyes an oddly bland discrepancy on the glowering face.
Odrade nodded as though Dama had answered. "We could leave you vulnerable to those who assail you, those who drove you into this cul de sac."
"You think we . . ."
"We know."
At least, now I know.


Very interesting indeed. I have also found another passage much earlier in the book:

"I find it difficult to contemplate humankind spreading into an unlimited universe," Tam said. "The possibilities . . ."
"Infinite numbers game." Odrade stepped across a broken curb. "That should be repaired. We've been playing the infinity game since we learned to jump Foldspace."
There was no joy in Bellonda.
"It's not a game!"
Odrade could appreciate Bellonda's feelings. We have never seen empty space. Always more galaxies. Tam's right. It's daunting when you focus on that Golden
Path.
Memories of explorations gave the Sisterhood a statistical handle on it but little else. So many habitable planets in a given assemblage and, among those, an expected additional number that could be terraformed.
"What's evolving out there?" Tamalane demanded.
A question they could not answer. Ask what Infinity might produce and the only answer possible was, "Anything."
Any good, any evil; any god, any devil.
"What if Honored Matres are fleeing something?" Odrade asked. "Interesting possibility?"
"These speculations are useless," Bellonda muttered. "We don't even know if Foldspace introduces us to one universe or many . . . or even an infinite number
of expanding and collapsing bubbles."
"Did the Tyrant understand this any better than we do?" Tamalane asked.


So the Honored Matres were running away from something, or at least they encountered something that they could not defeat.

And I guess that this Outside/Great/Unknown Enemy is just an invention by the Heretic Duo a.k.a BH & KJA, in order to give a face or name to this terrible something, or maybe they just happen to like robots. (Aren't sci-fi villains primarily aliens or robots?)

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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2011 21:16

They just don't read carefully. CH:D says quite plainly who Marty and Daniel are and explains that the HM were driven back to the old empire either by them or someone like them, seeking the BG's secret to immunity to biological attack

Even if they did understand Dune, they obviously don't care and aren't men enough to admit to their mistakes and deviations from FH's Dune.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby SandChigger » 24 May 2011 06:08

(I think it's probably something more like this: he assumes the readers are too stupid to [or don't] care and, since he's basically lazy, he doesn't try.)
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby muddism » 07 Oct 2011 21:22

CH explains that Daniel and Marty are independent Face Dancers, so that's pretty clear. What I'm wondering is could they also be in league with advanced cyborgs. Reading CH I kinda got the impression he might have been laying down the framework for this, especially when Odrade gave the order to cyborg Clairby. With the ancient prejudices of the Butlerian Jihad it could possibly tie in. Did anyone else suspect this? I know we will never know how he would have ended it but it seems more logical than the fagot ass thinking machines Baby Herbert threw at us. Frank did have a liking for cyborgs and wrote about them several times. Just a thought...but I'm sure someone like Sandchigger will cut it down presently.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby lotek » 08 Oct 2011 06:56

SandChigger wrote:(I think it's probably something more like this: he assumes the readers are too stupid to [or don't] care and, since he's basically lazy, he doesn't try.)


well he does need time for all this beer and hiking while watching dvds as jabecca gently strokes his fat ego
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Oct 2011 10:52

muddism wrote:CH explains that Daniel and Marty are independent Face Dancers, so that's pretty clear. What I'm wondering is could they also be in league with advanced cyborgs. Reading CH I kinda got the impression he might have been laying down the framework for this, especially when Odrade gave the order to cyborg Clairby. With the ancient prejudices of the Butlerian Jihad it could possibly tie in. Did anyone else suspect this?


No.

I know we will never know how he would have ended it but it seems more logical than the fagot ass thinking machines Baby Herbert threw at us. Frank did have a liking for cyborgs and wrote about them several times. Just a thought...but I'm sure someone like Sandchigger will cut it down presently.


I don't think the advanced face dancers needed cyborgs. There's barely any evidence of who M&D were, none about being in league with cyborgs.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Oct 2011 16:59

It could be argued that all the breaking of the tech-laws in the final books was forshadowing. I personally don't think it's enough to really suggest that a higher tech threat was going to be featured in the final book, but I can definitely see how it could plant that idea in peoples' minds.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Oct 2011 08:45

All it suggested to me was that since The Scattering the precepts of the Butlerian Jihad had been slowly slackened. There were medical cyborgs and porter robots. Hardly the evil cross-dressing robots of the Hacks Twain.

Besides, it was revealed that the BG had NEVER strictly adhered to it. And we knew all along the BT and Ixians didn't, Richese too.
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Re: Is this Outside Enemy even mentioned in the original books?

Postby Serkanner » 11 Oct 2011 12:35

Previously forbidden "new" technologies? Yes ... AI overlords? No.
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