Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

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Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby nistle2 » 27 May 2011 13:28

Bittersweet - I finished Chapterhouse on the red eye this morning. :D :tissue2:

It was nice that Herbert got to finish the series using his own voice, writing the obituary for his wife. I'm not sure if that was part of the original print but even if it was added later on I think it's fitting.

It's self indulgent creating a thread just about me finishing but what the hell. I didn't know where else to post it and after reading through all the books for the first time I at least wanted to thank Freak and everybody else involved with this site because I can't tell you how many times I logged in to read a recap of a confusing chapter or get some better idea of the themes going on in all the books. It would've been a much drier and less enjoyable experience without this site so thanks everyone .. you can wipe the tears from you eyes now.

So should I read some of the Brian Herbert abominations? I know this is an orthodox site but you guys must've read some of the Berbert books just to know how terrible they are.

and would somebody mind filling me in on whether Herbert was working on a book after Chapterhouse before he died? Is it something Brian picked up and "made his own?"

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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 May 2011 13:48

The official story is that Brian Herbert found a lockbox in a bank that contained outlines for Dune 7 (the finale) on floppy disk, and that's what he and KJA based their two books Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune on. Anyone who's read those two books can tell you for sure they're full of shit though - if they truely did find notes it's certain they didn't follow them.

I read their Legends series first, and while it was horrible, it didn't make me angry, just sad. Same thing with Hunters of Dune... then I got to Sandworms. I seriously wish I had never read it, it made me physically ill at points and honestly made re-reading the original books less enjoyable for me (which I think is starting to wear off now, a few years later).
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Freakzilla » 27 May 2011 13:50

nistle2 wrote:Bittersweet - I finished Chapterhouse on the red eye this morning. :D :tissue2:

It was nice that Herbert got to finish the series using his own voice, writing the obituary for his wife. I'm not sure if that was part of the original print but even if it was added later on I think it's fitting.

It's self indulgent creating a thread just about me finishing but what the hell. I didn't know where else to post it and after reading through all the books for the first time I at least wanted to thank Freak and everybody else involved with this site because I can't tell you how many times I logged in to read a recap of a confusing chapter or get some better idea of the themes going on in all the books. It would've been a much drier and less enjoyable experience without this site so thanks everyone .. you can wipe the tears from you eyes now.


I exist only to serve. I'm glad the reading group helped you out!

So should I read some of the Brian Herbert abominations? I know this is an orthodox site but you guys must've read some of the Berbert books just to know how terrible they are.

and would somebody mind filling me in on whether Herbert was working on a book after Chapterhouse before he died? Is it something Brian picked up and "made his own?"


The story (one version) is, the estate lawyer found an outline for "Dune 7" in a safe deposit box and BH found a box of notes in his garage. That is supposedly what Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune is based on.

But after reading them we can confidently tell you there is no fucking way. Apart from the atrocious "writing" they totally ignored or even reversed FH's themes.

Not only that, they said we'd have to write the prequels first for the sequels to make sense, and the only characters from the prequels that were in the sequels were admittedly their own creations. So basically they lied ot us to sell books with Dune on the cover.

Read them if you want but it will only spin you into a rage, followed by about 28 other emotional stages afterwards.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Nekhrun » 27 May 2011 15:04

nistle2 wrote:So should I read some of the Brian Herbert abominations? I know this is an orthodox site but you guys must've read some of the Berbert books just to know how terrible they are.

Please don't. It's too late for some of us, but you can at least remain unsullied.

Just remember, if you read something one of us writes about what's in McDune and it doesn't seem like it could possibly be true, not only is it true, it's very likely way worse than you can imagine.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Omphalos » 27 May 2011 15:37

nistle2 wrote:So should I read some of the Brian Herbert abominations? I know this is an orthodox site but you guys must've read some of the Berbert books just to know how terrible they are.


To hate a thing, you must know a thing (unless you are an hornery, Texan fogie), Grasshopper. So read as much as you can stomach and join the conversation.

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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 May 2011 16:47

Not totally on topic, but have I ever mentioned that I think we should avoid really weak evidence or arguments when talking about how horrible those two are, or how they clear did not follow any notes for Dune 7?

One of those weaker arguments is saying that them admitting to creating Omnius and Erasmus proves they're making up the notes. It really doesn't at all, FH could in theory have had 2 very roughed in characters like them and when KJABH said they were brainstorming how the characters should be they could easily have just been referring to fleshing them out. All it proves is that those specific personalities didn't come out of FH's notes.

Obviously this is NOT what truely happened, I'm just saying that using the fact that they came up with the actual characters personalities themselves as evidence of this is a really weak argument and it's one we've been using for years.

I think we should drop it, it make our logic look flawed.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby SandChigger » 27 May 2011 18:32

A Thing of Eternity wrote:One of those weaker arguments is saying that them admitting to creating Omnius and Erasmus proves they're making up the notes. It really doesn't at all, FH could in theory have had 2 very roughed in characters like them and when KJABH said they were brainstorming how the characters should be they could easily have just been referring to fleshing them out. All it proves is that those specific personalities didn't come out of FH's notes.

Obviously this is NOT what truely happened, I'm just saying that using the fact that they came up with the actual characters personalities themselves as evidence of this is a really weak argument and it's one we've been using for years.

I think we should drop it, it make our logic look flawed.

Um... I don't recall anyone ever making that argument. The point is that Erasmus and Omnius prove, and by their own admission, that they have added things not originally in Frank Herbert's outline or notes for "Dune 7". (And note that even with Erasmus, they claimed that he is a combination of elements they found in the outline and notes.)

What calls into question their use—or even the existence—of the notes is how wildly different some of the stuff in McDune is from Frank Herbert's Dune.

nistle2 wrote:and would somebody mind filling me in on whether Herbert was working on a book after Chapterhouse before he died? Is it something Brian picked up and "made his own?"

I think Brian writes something in Dreamer of Dune about his father wandering around the house with a copy of Chapterhouse he was rereading and a highlighter marker before he took ill, preparing to begin writing the new book. And I believe someone else has posted here about FH's last contract with some publisher that included the "Dune 7" book. So it appears that he was indeed planning to write another book.

(Note that the Herberritts have never released a file timestamp or other date for the outline on the floppies. Presumably FH would have begun it after writing Chapterhouse, but there's really no way of knowing when it dates from based on the info they've released to date.)
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby inhuien » 27 May 2011 18:57

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STEP AWAY FROM THAT MCDUNE!


For real, you can't unread that shit.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Ampoliros » 27 May 2011 19:06

House Atreides - I don't remember much. Oh yeah, the ULTRA-MUTANT Salusian Bull that killed Leto's dad. Sorry Kevin, it was an ordinary bull. Trust me, it's better that way.

House Harkonnen - Pretty typical meh until the Baron went to go to talk to the Bene Gesseritt, which enraged him by turning invisible and giggling like schoolgirls until he stormed out. I threw the book down at that point.

House Corrino
- Didn't read it, still pissed about Bene Gesseritt

Butlerian Jihad, Machine Crusade, Battle of Corrino
- Just watch Terminator 2 and Battlefield Earth while getting drunk. Your dreams will be very similar, and probably more coherent than the rest of the prequel trilogy. Again, I didn't finish the series, which is a good thing, because I just recently learned about the worm race/joust which very much would make me want to hurt something. Sorceresses of Rossak didn't have magic powers either, no matter how much KJA urgently points out the text in Dune which says they do.
A Hint for Kevin: that's something you would believe only if you understand nothing of what and who the Bene Gesserit are. There is a really good scene in that same book between Jessica and Thufir which explains this, but then again, you'll just think Jessica was threatening to use her psychic powers to mind control Thufir.

Hunters and Sandworse. Don't bother. What books? I've never heard of them. Not in any discussion of what really happened in the Duniverse. If you are curious, I do believe there is a rather good synopsis on the wiki page. Here's a shorter one consisting of some code words:
High School Reunion,
Missionaria Agressiva,
Waterworms,
Ultra-Kwisatz Haderach,
Deum Ex Machina

Yeah, that's the plural form of Deus Ex Machina, according to my very rusty Latin. And yeah, KJA needed more than two Deus Ex Machina to 'complete' the series.

Paul of Dune. - Inconsistency is Irulan's fault. Irulan must be a Talifan for changing so much of Kevin's great work. Paul gets shipped around the galaxy during the 'war of assassins' which is won by killing a psychic tree, then killing Leto's blushing bride with ninja-star throwing potted plants. Meanwhile in the 'present' a six-year old toddler that is in no way a rip off of River Tam turns out to be the ultra assassin who almost kills Paul, while his Fremen guards laugh thinking she's just being cute. Apparently, Paul is dark, and this makes Dune Messiah make sense.

Winds of Dune. - talking about being self indulgent, check this out:
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1743&hilit=Amp%27s+wod+notes
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Ampoliros » 27 May 2011 19:09

SandChigger wrote:I think Brian writes something in Dreamer of Dune about his father wandering around the house with a copy of Chapterhouse he was rereading and a highlighter marker


I want that copy for my Dune collection, more than even a first edition signed by Frank Herbert. 'tis a holy relic of unspeakable power, and it will be mine.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby inhuien » 27 May 2011 19:11

Ampoliros, thats the very definition :tissue2: of misery loves company.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Freakzilla » 27 May 2011 19:25

Ampoliros wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I think Brian writes something in Dreamer of Dune about his father wandering around the house with a copy of Chapterhouse he was rereading and a highlighter marker


I want that copy for my Dune collection, more than even a first edition signed by Frank Herbert. 'tis a holy relic of unspeakable power, and it will be mine.


It's obviously corrupted him.

But WOW that would be nice to have. :mrgreen:
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby SadisticCynic » 27 May 2011 20:09

SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:One of those weaker arguments is saying that them admitting to creating Omnius and Erasmus proves they're making up the notes. It really doesn't at all, FH could in theory have had 2 very roughed in characters like them and when KJABH said they were brainstorming how the characters should be they could easily have just been referring to fleshing them out. All it proves is that those specific personalities didn't come out of FH's notes.

Obviously this is NOT what truely happened, I'm just saying that using the fact that they came up with the actual characters personalities themselves as evidence of this is a really weak argument and it's one we've been using for years.

I think we should drop it, it make our logic look flawed.

Um... I don't recall anyone ever making that argument. The point is that Erasmus and Omnius prove, and by their own admission, that they have added things not originally in Frank Herbert's outline or notes for "Dune 7". (And note that even with Erasmus, they claimed that he is a combination of elements they found in the outline and notes.)

What calls into question their use—or even the existence—of the notes is how wildly different some of the stuff in McDune is from Frank Herbert's Dune.


I thought the problem with those characters was that they claimed that there was a suggestion in the notes linking the Butlerian Jihad with Marty & Daniel. Then Marty ends up being Erasmus. Except, Erasmus, by their own admission, is a character (technically a misuse of that word :? ) invented by KJA, who wanted a little Mengele to spice things up. Apparently a contradiction.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Freakzilla » 27 May 2011 20:25

SadisticCynic wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:One of those weaker arguments is saying that them admitting to creating Omnius and Erasmus proves they're making up the notes. It really doesn't at all, FH could in theory have had 2 very roughed in characters like them and when KJABH said they were brainstorming how the characters should be they could easily have just been referring to fleshing them out. All it proves is that those specific personalities didn't come out of FH's notes.

Obviously this is NOT what truely happened, I'm just saying that using the fact that they came up with the actual characters personalities themselves as evidence of this is a really weak argument and it's one we've been using for years.

I think we should drop it, it make our logic look flawed.

Um... I don't recall anyone ever making that argument. The point is that Erasmus and Omnius prove, and by their own admission, that they have added things not originally in Frank Herbert's outline or notes for "Dune 7". (And note that even with Erasmus, they claimed that he is a combination of elements they found in the outline and notes.)

What calls into question their use—or even the existence—of the notes is how wildly different some of the stuff in McDune is from Frank Herbert's Dune.


I thought the problem with those characters was that they claimed that there was a suggestion in the notes linking the Butlerian Jihad with Marty & Daniel. Then Marty ends up being Erasmus. Except, Erasmus, by their own admission, is a character (technically a misuse of that word :? ) invented by KJA, who wanted a little Mengele to spice things up. Apparently a contradiction.


My gripe about E&O was that was the reason apparently they HAD to write all those prequels for their sequels to make sense. Or so they claimed.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Serkanner » 27 May 2011 20:43

The important thing to realize is that they never claimed that E&O were in the Dune 7 outline or notes ... and I think it is safe to assume they would have if there was any mention of it. So ... I feel the burden of proof is not with us but with the HLP ... publish the notes!
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby SandChigger » 27 May 2011 23:16

SadisticCynic wrote:I thought the problem with those characters was that they claimed that there was a suggestion in the notes linking the Butlerian Jihad with Marty & Daniel. Then Marty ends up being Erasmus. Except, Erasmus, by their own admission, is a character (technically a misuse of that word :? ) invented by KJA, who wanted a little Mengele to spice things up. Apparently a contradiction.

That's the problem with them being revealed as the old couple from Chapterhouse. The above is the problem with them being in a so-called Dune book, period. ;)

(Oh, and Amp, I think it's probably dei ex machina. One machine, though, since I forget if it's a first declension noun (in which case the plural would be ex machinas?) or not.)
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Ampoliros » 28 May 2011 00:32

Well the origin is KJA so one machine. and yeah i think dei is right, deum is possessive now that I think about it. Or I could be bothered to dig up my old text boo...ooo Steam is having a sale!
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby nistle2 » 28 May 2011 14:25

Oh man, I love that idea of Frank Herbert walking around his house rereading Chapterhouse and preparing a sequel. Like you guys were saying, owning that highlighted and marked book would be gold. Gold, Jerry, gold!

As far as the McDunes I think I'm convinced not to read them. You guys make a good point that once you read that shit it can't be unread and I really don't want to spoil my enjoyment of the series.

And Dreamer of Dune, is that worth the read? I love Herbert but I could see myself reading just the parts about him writing the Duniverse and then skipping the rest.

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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Freakzilla » 28 May 2011 14:41

nistle2 wrote:And Dreamer of Dune, is that worth the read? I love Herbert but I could see myself reading just the parts about him writing the Duniverse and then skipping the rest.


It would be worth ripping apart and scanning to PDF. :wink:
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby nistle2 » 28 May 2011 15:08

lol, point taken, Freak

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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Freakzilla » 28 May 2011 15:26

I say that for purely personal reasons... send me a copy.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Tleszer » 28 May 2011 21:42

nistle2 wrote:As far as the McDunes I think I'm convinced not to read them. You guys make a good point that once you read that shit it can't be unread and I really don't want to spoil my enjoyment of the series.


If you want to read any McDune, let it purely be a wiki summary. That way, you won't be too corrupted by the thing that can never be unseen. As Thing said before, Sandworms actually made me really angry. I'm still in disbelief that a fiction book could make me feel like that.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Freakzilla » 29 May 2011 05:40

The last chapter of Hunters was my last straw.
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 May 2011 00:16

SPOILER ALERT TO ANYONE WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT ME SPOILING A MASSIVE PLOTLINE FROM HUNTERS AND SANDWORMS, DO NOT READ THIS POST!

SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:One of those weaker arguments is saying that them admitting to creating Omnius and Erasmus proves they're making up the notes. It really doesn't at all, FH could in theory have had 2 very roughed in characters like them and when KJABH said they were brainstorming how the characters should be they could easily have just been referring to fleshing them out. All it proves is that those specific personalities didn't come out of FH's notes.

Obviously this is NOT what truely happened, I'm just saying that using the fact that they came up with the actual characters personalities themselves as evidence of this is a really weak argument and it's one we've been using for years.

I think we should drop it, it make our logic look flawed.

Um... I don't recall anyone ever making that argument. The point is that Erasmus and Omnius prove, and by their own admission, that they have added things not originally in Frank Herbert's outline or notes for "Dune 7". (And note that even with Erasmus, they claimed that he is a combination of elements they found in the outline and notes.)

What calls into question their use—or even the existence—of the notes is how wildly different some of the stuff in McDune is from Frank Herbert's Dune.


They never claimed that they didn't add things of their own to Dune 7 though - we don't need any evidence to prove that at all, it's just common sense that they would have added some of their own ideas, if all they found was an outline (which of course they didn't) then of course they would have. This is something that has come up many many times over the past few years, and I remember because it's been bugging me for years, people have directly used KJABH admitting they wrote those characters as evidence for the fact that the whole D&M were robots thing was KJABH's invention, which it isn't evidence for at all (again, FH could have written "Daniel and Marty were robots all along" - that wouldn't conflict at all with their original story or their story of having written those 2 characters). Though obviously yes they did make that up themselves.

In the post I was responding to Freak said what's quoted below (I missed part of the quote, this paragraph is directly following one talking about their claim that they found the notes for Dune 7, and whether intentionally or not it seems to be referencing the previous paragraph when talking about their admissals showing they had lied). Now, they way Freak says it is a lot more ambiguous than what's been said in the past, but it still comes across very strongly as: They made up Erasmus and Omnius, therefore they made up E&O being D&M as well.

Freakzilla wrote:Not only that, they said we'd have to write the prequels first for the sequels to make sense, and the only characters from the prequels that were in the sequels were admittedly their own creations. So basically they lied ot us to sell books with Dune on the cover.


I'm not trying to start an argument, if that's not what Freak was saying here that's cool, just pointing out that that's how it comes across, both in it's own context and in the context of the past years of people using it much more clearly and directly as evidence that the robots thing was all made up.

Anyways, carry on, as long as we all agree it doesn't prove anything about the notes existing or not existing, and what was or was not in them (other than specifics of character development which they admitted to doing themselves) then we're all cool. :D
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Re: Finished Chapterhouse this Morning

Postby Freakzilla » 30 May 2011 00:39

When I said that I wasn't thinking about whether or not the outline existed, just that they duped us into buying the prequels so their "grand finale" would make sense.
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