"Brown Repose" Epigraph

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Streaksy
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"Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 13 Sep 2011 23:19

Hi. I've asked this in two Dune forums in the last 12ish years. The first time I was met with the usual internet "ur an idiot for not knowing" with no answer. The second time I got "no idea sorry".

This forum seems very promising. ;D

Since the first time I read Dune I've always remembered the poem/song "Brown Repose". I think it's a stab at complacent beurocrats but I don't understand the symbolism at all. It seems vague for the sake of vagueness but if anyone can enlighten me I'd really appreciate it.


Brown Repose

Consider leis (latin/greek for laws???)
Brown repose -- and
The tragedy
In all of those
Cranks! All those Cranks!
So laze -- so laze
Through all your days.
Time has toll'd for
M'Lord Sandwich!


What... the.... ?

Thanks. =D

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Omphalos » 14 Sep 2011 00:05

Here's about as thorough an answer as we can give.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=170&hilit=hawaii

Dont bother with the link to DN. Ist all reposted here. But if you do go, try to avoid all the other dumb fuckery over there.

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 01:40

I'm no history buff and the internet is full of pretenders, so all I've had is Wikipedia to see if there's any corelation with "Lord Sandwich", and I haven't found one yet. I don't even know if it's Edward Montagu I that the poem is about, or one of the other Earls, or what. It might be that Edward Montagu (or a successor) was an exhausted doer in a world of discussers...?

It's the brown part I'm most baffled by! Seems like a semi-sophisticated reference to poop in an imaginary culture... That's the obvious interpretation... I think...

I honestly think it's one of Frank's devices of projecting to a time with it's own cultural references and we're only supposed to appreciate the underlying jist. He does that quite a lot and it's fine. But I have to know for sure!

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby merkin muffley » 14 Sep 2011 10:02

Streaksy wrote:Consider leis (latin/greek for laws???)


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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby SandChigger » 14 Sep 2011 10:17

Streaksy wrote:I'm no history buff and the internet is full of pretenders, so all I've had is Wikipedia to see if there's any corelation with "Lord Sandwich", and I haven't found one yet.

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_Islands:
Sandwich Islands was the name given to the Hawaiian Islands by James Cook on one of his voyages in the 1770s. James Cook named the islands after John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, a supporter of Cook's voyages. The Sandwich Islands continued as the normal English name for the island until the mid-1890s.


It's the brown [repose] part I'm most baffled by! Seems like a semi-sophisticated reference to poop in an imaginary culture... That's the obvious interpretation... I think...

I take it you've never relaxed in the arms of a Polynesian lass or lad, then. ;)

I honestly think it's one of Frank's devices of projecting to a time with it's own cultural references and we're only supposed to appreciate the underlying jist. He does that quite a lot and it's fine. But I have to know for sure!

While it does stretch the credibility a bit to assume that the references in the song would have been understood by the general Imperium public, especially a fragmented public reeling from the shock of having lost its access to computer databanks and the stored knowledge of millennia, it seems fairly obvious that Herbert meant Hawaii as the location of the C.E.T. (A "neutral island" on Earth, not some other planet.)

If there's a plausible alternative, I've yet to hear it.

(This is going to be one of the fun parts of the upcoming Shitterhood of Dune book or "Great Stools" trilogy, to see if The Hacks understood and how they manage to hold the C.E.T. on a nuke-blasted Earth. Can't wait to see what Anderhack pulls out of his ass! :laughing-rolling: )
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Sep 2011 10:48

I need to get leid. :(
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby SandChigger » 14 Sep 2011 11:02

I'd say! :shock:

By the way, "Brown Repose" is a song quoted as an example in the text of the appendix: it is by no means an "epigraph".

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 13:44

Okay, I'm not getting why it's so assumable that Frank's on about Hawaiian islands. I know about the Cook naming tribute and the financing he got. Why assume anything in the song is about that one particular event just because the last words are "M'Lord Sandwich"...? What's the Hawaii connection? If actually think I'm unintelligent for not knowing that one thing (I know what the internet is like) then I can understand why this forum has a :Adolf: smiley. :P I've got disabilities and no formal education at all past the age of 13 but I try and I'm doing pretty well for a total autodidact. Sorry if I'm preempting too much but I'm sick of self-important internet people who don't realise everyone's different, or that they use themselves as an intelligence template because they're utterly insulated.

And, okay, it's not an epigraph. I know it from memory. I haven't read Dune with it's appendices in about 8 years. The last time I read it was overnight in a hospital after being shot for my skin colour. Wasn't serious but I was still coming down off morphine and the pain was kicking in so I needed a distraction. Infact I wondered why I hadn't come accross the Brown Repose epigraph. Now I know! I'll pick up Dune again tonight to see the context of the song.

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Sep 2011 13:50

Streaksy wrote:Okay, I'm not getting why it's so assumable that Frank's on about Hawaiian islands.


Maybe because he had a house there?

The Herberts decided to buy a vacation house in Hawaii and to winter there. They flew to Hawaii in mid-January 1980 and made an offer on a remote beachside property. Two months later Frank Herbert received a huge advance on a two-book deal for Sandworm of Dune and another non-Dune science fiction novel (The White Plague). This allowed them to begin construction on the Hawaii house without selling their Port Townsend property.
http://frankherberttheworks.blogspot.co ... awaii.html

Obviously he was fond of it.
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 14:05

That's still a pretty tenuous connection and doesn't explain the song's references.

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby SadisticCynic » 14 Sep 2011 14:22

It's that plus the other things that lead to the conclusion about Hawaii.
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 15:19

Sigh. Forget it. Someone delete this post. Wasting my time here. Internet people learn some incidentally relevant fact then act mysterious about it to seem wise or something as if they have the answers. I'd hold out for a straight answer if it wasn't for all these time-wasting forum-mentality responses.

Forum attempt one: "If u dnt know then ur an idiot"
Forum attempt two: "I don't know. Sorry."
Forum attempt three: "Hawaii hawaii hawaii hawaii hawaii hawaii!!!"

The only answer there I respect is #2. If you can't explain the song like a real human being talking to another human being then just say so plainly. It's not healthy to live a self-deluded life, prefering to act in-the-know instead of actually knowing. I'm sticking to my "arbitrary projection of imaginary future cultural references" theory.

Do you want to go to forums to earnestly discuss things and learn about it, or just seem aloof to people you'll never even meet? You've found a POSSIBLE connection with no actual explanation for it, but beyond that, you obviously JUST don't know. It's okay to not know. The only people you'll impress by pretending are other pretenders.

A biting satire against overpaid space-beurocrats probably isn't about hugging Polynesians. But thanks anyway.

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby SandRider » 14 Sep 2011 15:34

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 16:15

Yup, gets some actual honest attempts at answers and just because he doesn't agree with em goes off like a child having a tantrum.

Troll, ignore him.

EDIT: yeah, might not be a troll, just a very sad person. After reading this whole thread again, this is someone that WANTS to feel insulted. Anyone dissagrees with him slightly and he way over-reacts, obviously has a victim complex. Or he's a troll, can't quite be sure.

Oh, and we don't delete threads around here my friend, this is an open discussion forum where people are allowed to say anything they want, we don't censor people unless they go right off the deep end, and even then, those posts go to the "bad examples" subforum and are locked down, they aren''t deleted.
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 16:58

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Yup, gets some actual honest attempts at answers and just because he doesn't agree with em goes off like a child having a tantrum.

Troll, ignore him.

EDIT: yeah, might not be a troll, just a very sad person. After reading this whole thread again, this is someone that WANTS to feel insulted. Anyone dissagrees with him slightly and he way over-reacts, obviously has a victim complex. Or he's a troll, can't quite be sure.

Oh, and we don't delete threads around here my friend, this is an open discussion forum where people are allowed to say anything they want, we don't censor people unless they go right off the deep end, and even then, those posts go to the "bad examples" subforum and are locked down, they aren''t deleted.



Nobody disagreed with me. They just give me smokescreen and no answer. It's how forums go. The next step is usually tangling the discussion up in pedantics or pointing out spelling errors, anything to avoid the fact they they just don't know the answer. Hopefully saying this has broke the cycle and someone might just admit "we don't have any answers." and I'll be happy.

Whether the AUTHOR has a thing for Hawaii or not, I'm asking about the relevence inside the Dune universe, not directly outside of it. In the far future where Earth is barely more than a matter of academic record, there is no way that thousands of worlds with billions of people each are going "Oooh I get it! It's cos of Hawaii! Take, that beurocrats!". I'm sure the introduction to the song implies (or directly states) that it's a universally understood attack in the Dune universe.

I appreciate people even reading this thread, but come on. Treat me like a human with an innocent and reasonable question, rather than a dickhead there just to spout barely relevant Dune trivia at me to feel wise or something. Forums lure in intelligent people and use self-affirming denial to put them on a path with no future.

I'm not a forum person, but I do know what the term "troll" means. If you really even SUSPECT that I'm here to "troll", then the word has lost all meaning in the hands of the insulated virgins who create such terms. It's just ammo to use against anyone who might burst their bubble. I don't care about anything in this forum but getting an answer to my straight-forward question so use whatever nerdy devices you like against me, but from one human being to another, whoever you are, wake the fuck up to yourself. If you'd rather spiral down to using irrational attacks like pictures of green nukes (as if insulting me in the most world-insulated way imaginable does anything for you in reality) then go ahead, but I'm warning you against being a mong out of kindness.

I'm not here to win. I'm here to find out what some song is about. Let's start again. Does anyone know? First person to say "I don't know, sorry" is the most mature and wise. If you know the answer I'll be damn impressed, but impressing me won't get you anywhere in life and you don't have to fake it. Do it as a courtesy if you know, because trying to impress strangers is a sign of weakness. People with no self-confidence use stupid little ways to feel better about themselves and forums are a hotbed for this. It's understandable, and I don't look down on people without confidence, but nobody gets enlightened or finds ANY KIND of success by living in denial.

So. What does the damn song mean?

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 17:18

This is so odd, it's like you read the words but the meaning elludes you. You asked, everyone treated you perfectly fine, no smokescreens, no condescention, nothing negative at all - you chose to interpret it that way. Nobody here was trying to feel "wise" or anything, certainly not being a dickhead. :?

You were given the best answers anyone had, and their reasoning behind the answers. If you dissagree with them, that's fine - but why do you blow up like this? You automatically assume people are giving you the runaround, or messing with you, or feeling superior to you... for no real reason.

You may have an emotional dissorder. Seriously, I'm not being an ass, I'm one of the kindest people I know - you should probably seek professional help if all you see is people out to get you, and you automatically think people are giving you a hard time when they're just honestly trying to help.
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby merkin muffley » 14 Sep 2011 17:19

Leis =
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 17:20

Oh, and if it'll make you feel any better: I personally have no idea what that piece is about. Not the slightest, not a clue. None.
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 17:22

merkin muffley wrote:Leis =
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See, people aren't giving you smokescreens or anything. We now have 3 distinct things in the poem that seem to possibly refer to Hawaii - what that means I don't know.
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 17:24

And while I'm posting, why don't you explain some of why you think what you think about the piece, rather than just snap at everyone for explaining their perspective?! :?
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 17:27

I've just read the full thread again, and I've been rude. I misunderstood something. It's not that I'm throwing the Hawaii thing back in your face because I don't agree. It's because I didn't even think it was a serious answer. That's why I responded like that. I'm gonna apologize and slow down. I'm not used for the pace of forums and I might misinterpret quite a lot. Just because things work differently online doesn't mean I'm the correct contributer. It's not like pulling up and asking someone for directions, where they either know or don't.

If the Hawaii thing is the only connection anyone's ever found then that's fine. I'll accept that. But if anyone else suspects anything else I'd love to hear it.

All that stuff about forum people... maybe I'm generalising and lumping you all in with the likes of YouTube commenters. I'm rough around the edges and my apology is sincere.

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 17:32

Alright then, I will also appologize for my snapping back at you then!

As bizarre as it seems, the Hawaii answer is definitely a serious one, whether it's correct or not I cannot say - poets are sneaky people and meanings are not always as they seem (sometimes I doubt the poet even knows fully what they mean).

The evidence in the poem is one thing, the other thing is the commonly held belief that the CET was held on Hawaii, so there's the Dune connection with Hawaii, plus we know FH was very fond of the place.

Does it add up to the right answer for why that poem is in there? Or what the poet meant, or FH meant by using it?

Not a flipping clue! :wink:
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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 17:38

Oh, C.E.T. is a Dune-Universe thing? See? I thought the person who brought that up meant it was a real life organisation. I don't know what it means. To me it means Central European Time, so it went over my overreactive head. And I only just realised what the "leis = " box means. The language of the internet is still aloof to me. :O I got things very wrong.

What's the C.E.T.? I can't remember that from Dune. I've read Dune loads of times, Messia and Children a few times, and the others just once, a long time ago.

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 17:44

I honestly thought the "Leis = " thing was just another comment with context I can't understand followed by another random Hawaiian image. Jeez...

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Re: "Brown Repose" Epigraph

Postby Streaksy » 14 Sep 2011 17:50

I found out. They commissioned the OCB !!

They were based on Hawaii? Haha, my question was answered almost straight away and I was being too big of a dick to see it. Sorry again. :( Ashamed of myself but I honestly misunderstood.

Can anyone tell me the source of the fact that the C.E.T. were based on Hawaii please?