Doing research on Dune, need help!

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Freakzilla
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Sep 2011 15:23

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Moonleaf wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:(I'm guessing he hasn't yet noticed the chapter summaries?)

That made me laugh really hard!

I haven't started the book yet, but it's on top of my reading list. Give me some days and I'll come with questions about the prequels and sequels :)


Forget about the prequels and sequels. They're shit.


Except for the sequels written by Frank Herbert of course. :)


:oops:
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 26 Sep 2011 17:08

merkin muffley wrote:
Moonleaf wrote:Give me some days and I'll come with questions about the prequels and sequels :)

:doh:
This is why video games SUCK.

I'm not getting you. The game is to be based on the Dune universe, not just the first book. I'm about to get a good grip of each faction's philosophy and goals but there must be a lot more material from Frank Herbert's sequels. If someone could offer help about that I'd be grateful, since I'd really like to flesh out the game without having to read all 6 of the books.

Moonleaf wrote:I could skip research by making the game generic fantasy, where humans, dwarves, elves and orcs are in a valley gathering crystals.

That is exactly what you're doing. You've got a list of names, just switch them, as I'm sure you've done on every other game you've worked on. Your process, which doesn't involve any real interest in the material, guarantees that they're all going to be generic.

Ah, but that can be said about any game in general. The same game mechanics can represent anything. Consider all the Monopoly and Risk rethemes. If you're more familiar with Euro games, consider Starfarers of Catan. Instead of calling reinforcements you could be summoning devils.

With the same mindframe, the Dune book could have be placed in a fantasy world with wizards, portals, planeshifting and magical resources instead of a sci-fi one with few changes.

What will give the feeling of Dune is not the game environment itself (stripped down, it's just war after all). Instead, each factions' specialized abilities will give the feeling that you are one of them. For example, Atreides will be playing heroically, their strong units risking and sacrificing themselves for their lower units. Due to that, they will be able to recruit units easier and they will be more loyal. The amalgam of abilities will be unique to Atreides and if the game does get rethemed oneday, the new army of heroic humans will not have the exact same abilities as the Atreides.

Moonleaf wrote:Still, the creation of a game (allow me to quote a phrase I read once) "is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration".

If you really believe that, then why are you so fucking lazy?

Because I think what would be time-consuming for me would be a piece of cake for you. 5 minutes of your time for you to share some of your deep knowledge of the Dune world would save me days. Given, I would be enjoying a good book during those days as well, but as a greek saying goes, 'You need to hammer the metal while it's hot'

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Sep 2011 17:33

Moonleaf wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:
Moonleaf wrote:Give me some days and I'll come with questions about the prequels and sequels :)

:doh:
This is why video games SUCK.

I'm not getting you. The game is to be based on the Dune universe, not just the first book. I'm about to get a good grip of each faction's philosophy and goals but there must be a lot more material from Frank Herbert's sequels. If someone could offer help about that I'd be grateful, since I'd really like to flesh out the game without having to read all 6 of the books.


I've been studying the six Dune books for 27 years and would never claim to completely understand it because it is that complexed.

Now you come here and want the benefit of our knowledge without doing any actual work yourself. Just think how that looks from our point of view.

You're not even going to come close to any kind of accuracy without taking the adventure yourself.

It is not something that can be explained in five minutes. (Maybe that's why there's a discussion forum devoted to it?)
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Hunchback Jack » 26 Sep 2011 19:38

Moonleaf, if you're basing the game on the movie rather than the book, then using the movie as your primary source material is completely fine.

If you want to use details from the book to add colour/texture/accuracy to the game, then asking us specific questions to fill in the gaps is just not going to work. I'm sorry, but if you want your game to benefit from the details in the book, then reading the book will be the most effective way to achieve that. If you think that extra detail is important for your game, then it should be important enough for you to put in the time to read the book.

I don't mean to sound unhelpful, but it's a bit hard for us to make up the difference in detail between the movie and the book :).

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby merkin muffley » 26 Sep 2011 21:56

Moonleaf wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:
Moonleaf wrote:Give me some days and I'll come with questions about the prequels and sequels :)

:doh:
This is why video games SUCK.

I'm not getting you. The game is to be based on the Dune universe, not just the first book. I'm about to get a good grip of each faction's philosophy and goals but there must be a lot more material from Frank Herbert's sequels. If someone could offer help about that I'd be grateful, since I'd really like to flesh out the game without having to read all 6 of the books.

Moonleaf wrote:I could skip research by making the game generic fantasy, where humans, dwarves, elves and orcs are in a valley gathering crystals.

That is exactly what you're doing. You've got a list of names, just switch them, as I'm sure you've done on every other game you've worked on. Your process, which doesn't involve any real interest in the material, guarantees that they're all going to be generic.

Ah, but that can be said about any game in general. The same game mechanics can represent anything. Consider all the Monopoly and Risk rethemes. If you're more familiar with Euro games, consider Starfarers of Catan. Instead of calling reinforcements you could be summoning devils.

With the same mindframe, the Dune book could have be placed in a fantasy world with wizards, portals, planeshifting and magical resources instead of a sci-fi one with few changes.

What will give the feeling of Dune is not the game environment itself (stripped down, it's just war after all). Instead, each factions' specialized abilities will give the feeling that you are one of them. For example, Atreides will be playing heroically, their strong units risking and sacrificing themselves for their lower units. Due to that, they will be able to recruit units easier and they will be more loyal. The amalgam of abilities will be unique to Atreides and if the game does get rethemed oneday, the new army of heroic humans will not have the exact same abilities as the Atreides.

Moonleaf wrote:Still, the creation of a game (allow me to quote a phrase I read once) "is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration".

If you really believe that, then why are you so fucking lazy?

Because I think what would be time-consuming for me would be a piece of cake for you. 5 minutes of your time for you to share some of your deep knowledge of the Dune world would save me days. Given, I would be enjoying a good book during those days as well, but as a greek saying goes, 'You need to hammer the metal while it's hot'


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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Streaksy » 26 Sep 2011 22:24

It's not a commercial product. There's no cash prize. It's a bit of fun. The response is ridiculous. I think the game doesn't need to be that true to Dune. Just some obvious and shallow correlation. It doesn't matter much. I don't think Moonleaf is helping by trying to seem that interested. That's just what you do when you try to be accepted by a clique. It doesn't matter! It's just a hobby project! Jeez.

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Sep 2011 22:40

I think you missed the point.
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 27 Sep 2011 02:33

Freakzilla wrote:I think you missed the point.

I think I am missing it too

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 27 Sep 2011 02:59

Hunchback Jack wrote:Moonleaf, if you're basing the game on the movie rather than the book, then using the movie as your primary source material is completely fine.

I am basing the game on the cannon Dune universe. Whatever was in the movie that is true to the books could be used. As I said, I haven't seen the movie for 10 years and I don't remember it all that well and it is clear to me that the movie deviates a lot.

If you want to use details from the book to add colour/texture/accuracy to the game, then asking us specific questions to fill in the gaps is just not going to work. I'm sorry, but if you want your game to benefit from the details in the book, then reading the book will be the most effective way to achieve that. If you think that extra detail is important for your game, then it should be important enough for you to put in the time to read the book.

A question I posted about 5 pages ago:
Moonleaf wrote:On a second issue, I’d like to ask for 10 famous locations in Arrakis. Both dunes with worms and dangers where you can harvest spice, and civilized areas where you can obtain workers, set up political intrigues with the leaders or buy spice from salesmen.

I see 5 different populated areas on the map, Arrakeen, Carthag, Tuek's Sietch, Sietch Tabr and Habbanya Ridge Sietch. Possibly, one or two of them were not covered in the first book but were added in the sequels. If someone would provide 1-2 sentences for each (really, not more, I just need the gist of it) so as to fit economic/military/political abilities I could greatly speed up my process.

Similarly, which dunes to choose? The great flat? Hagga Basin? The minor erg? Cielago? In which of them have there been historic events from all the books?

I don't see it as that difficult for anyone familiar with the world. I also don't see it as laziness from my part, only effectiveness. Just reading one book once won't get me anywhere close to the knowledge fans like you have.

Besides, you can't fit details in an elegant game of 1-page rules. I just aim to capture the distilled essence.

Feel free not to answer, I am to find out myself, right? At least what the first book says

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Serkanner » 27 Sep 2011 06:46

Boring troll is boring.
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2011 07:28

Most of those places are just landmarks.
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2011 07:37

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2011 07:38

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Serkanner » 27 Sep 2011 08:14

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"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Nekhrun » 27 Sep 2011 08:24

Moonleaf wrote:I am basing the game on the cannon Dune universe. Whatever was in the movie that is true to the books could be used. As I said, I haven't seen the movie for 10 years and I don't remember it all that well and it is clear to me that the movie deviates a lot.

Movies aren't Dune canon dipshit. By your logic whatever is in my pants that was true to the books is canon as well.

Also, maybe you really meant to talk about cannons. I can't figure you out anyway.
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2011 08:34

Did you know they used cannons in Dune? That wasn't in the movie. :wink:
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2011 09:32

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby merkin muffley » 27 Sep 2011 13:11

Moonleaf wrote:Thank you Streaksy for your answer. Let me answer some of your questions.


moebius?
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 28 Sep 2011 02:43

Nekhrun wrote:Movies aren't Dune canon dipshit.
Thank you for letting me know, that information is very useful

Also, maybe you really meant to talk about cannons. I can't figure you out anyway.
Hahaha, that was a funny typo :mrgreen:

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 28 Sep 2011 02:45

Freakzilla wrote:http://www.rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/herbert.dune.shtml

Hahaha, quite funny.

I now have all the information I need for my project! :D

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 28 Sep 2011 02:49

As I said, I am quite clueless about slang.

Bacon means cop, from what I see here:
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-of/bacon

Are you using it as another meaning?

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Serkanner » 28 Sep 2011 04:05

Moonleaf wrote:As I said, I am quite clueless about slang.

Bacon means cop, from what I see here:
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-of/bacon

Are you using it as another meaning?


You are cluless about a lot of things ... most of all about Dune.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 28 Sep 2011 06:18

Serkanner wrote:You are cluless about a lot of things ... most of all about Dune.

Of course. As Socrates perfectly put it 'I only know one thing, that I know nothing'. I am ignorant or misinformed about most subjects and categories of knowledge. Even what I think I know is full of misconceptions and blind spots

That is why I came here for help in the first place :) I have gotten some help and some suggestions (mainly to read the first book) and I'm thankful to everyone.

As I proceed through the book, there will be more to discuss about in relation to Dune and the game. For now, it's simple smalltalk

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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Sep 2011 08:58

Moonleaf wrote:
Serkanner wrote:You are cluless about a lot of things ... most of all about Dune.

Of course. As Socrates perfectly put it 'I only know one thing, that I know nothing'. I am ignorant or misinformed about most subjects and categories of knowledge. Even what I think I know is full of misconceptions and blind spots


Admitting ignorance is the key to knowledge!

That is why I came here for help in the first place :) I have gotten some help and some suggestions (mainly to read the first book) and I'm thankful to everyone.

As I proceed through the book, there will be more to discuss about in relation to Dune and the game. For now, it's simple smalltalk


If you make it through the books and survive the hazing, I look forward to it!
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Re: Doing research on Dune, need help!

Postby Moonleaf » 29 Sep 2011 07:49

As a side note, I heard from people who have read the book that the original Frank Herbert english version is quite hard to read (at least to non-native speakers) and that he uses difficult language. I bought the Greek version because it was more readily available (I had to order the english one) and because I heard that it is easier to read for us.

Are the rumors true about FH's language?