Bene Gesserit Martial Style

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Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Dravition » 03 Nov 2011 15:59

I can picture something like this as being the martial style of the latter-day Bene Gesserit. Conform to opposing energy so that you can control it. Give this a full watch before sharing opinions :) Too many of my friends host misinterpretations of the softer-styles, such as tai chi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3nTAypJ ... re=related

[Edit] Sorry, this should have been posted under the BG thread.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Ampoliros » 03 Nov 2011 17:28

Good explanation of energy. Yeah I could see the BG using something like this.

More often I see them avoiding direct combat as much as possible.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Nov 2011 17:38

I got to 23 seconds and noticed this:

Energy has the tendicy[sic] to travel the path of least resistance.


:? Slightly suspicious of this claim, assuming that when he says energy it has anything at all to do with the concept from physics.

Of course he might be thinking of the principle of least action, which is a related idea, but still...

I'm not sure that the idea of energy encountering 'resistance' of any kind actually makes sense.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2011 17:46

Resistance is a major factor in Ohm's Law.

E=I/R

In physics, the path of least resistance is always taken by objects moving through a system. For example, water flowing downhill follows the path of least resistance as it is pulled downward by gravity. Electricity flowing through a circuit behaves similarly; while every available path has some current through it, the amount of current through each path is inversely proportional to its electrical resistance. Atmospheric disturbances (storms) flow on the path of least resistance by flowing toward zones of low barometric pressure, where lower air density offers less impedance to the storm system than higher pressure zones.
The path of least resistance is also used to describe certain human behaviors, although with much less specificity than in the strict physical sense. In these cases, resistance is often used as a metaphor for personal effort or confrontation; a person taking the path of least resistance avoids these. In library science and technical writing, information is ideally arranged for users according to the Principle of least effort, or the path of least resistance. Recursive navigation systems are an example of this.
Note: The path of least resistance applies on a local, not global, reference. For example, water always flows downhill, regardless of whether briefly flowing uphill will help it gain a lower final altitude (with certain exceptions such as superfluids). In physics, this phenomenon allows the formation of potential wells, where potential energy is stored because of a barrier restricting flow to a lower energy state.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 03 Nov 2011 17:47

No need of technique when they can magically turn invisible and whip someones ass that way. Or not need to fight anyway because they carry the secret gene from early Earth times of Susan Storm.

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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Dravition » 03 Nov 2011 18:52

Ampoliros wrote:More often I see them avoiding direct combat as much as possible.


I see the key as being the ability to negate the opponents strength by simply redirecting the force driving it. It's not necessarily about avoiding an oncoming force, and it certainly isn't about overcoming it. It's a matter of accepting it, conforming to it, and guiding it away from you -- thereby granting you the ability to strike devastating blows to an off-balance adversary.

[EDIT] Furthermore, it is a martial system truly based on the principles of simplicity, efficiency, and directness. As far as I know, it's the only major system developed by and for women [and, more generally, small people].
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2011 18:59

The only clue actually given by FH in the books I remember is that is is an eight-fold combat style.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Dravition » 03 Nov 2011 19:06

Freakzilla wrote:The only clue actually given by FH in the books I remember is that is is an eight-fold combat style.


I doubt FH wrote with a mind to Wing Tsun, I just think the essence of it is fitting :)
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Nov 2011 19:22

Taking the case of electrical resistance:

Ohm's Law is R = V/I with V the potential difference, I the current and R the resistance. If you are using I and R the same way I do, and E to mean potential difference then your equation is incorrect.
In any case, I don't think it's the energy that encounters resistance, rather it's the charges moving in the conductor. The charges have energy, and the electric field (which is equivalent [sort of] to the potential difference) has energy. The energy may be exchanged between these, but I don't think it ever finds it 'harder' to do so.

[I'm less certain about this next part, will ask my EM lecturer tomorrow]The charges will have some statistical spread of kinetic energies; if the kinetic energy of a charge is greater than the potential difference across a resistor, the charge will be able to move across it, if not, it cannot cross (ignoring QM tunnneling).
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2011 19:30

I'm just giving you the text, man.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Dravition » 03 Nov 2011 19:43

On a related tangent, I think a hard-style, such as tae kwon do ('the way of the hand and foot') is more in line with Honored Matres. It emphasizes power strikes, mostly designed to utilize a persons relatively large leg muscles. Even the forms of blocking are intended to deal damage to an opponents striking limbs.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Nekhrun » 03 Nov 2011 21:44

Dravition wrote:On a related tangent, I think a hard-style, such as tae kwon do ('the way of the hand and foot') is more in line with Honored Matres. It emphasizes power strikes, mostly designed to utilize a persons relatively large leg muscles. Even the forms of blocking are intended to deal damage to an opponents striking limbs.

Has there ever been a documented case in history where someone won a fight using Tae Kwon Do? I doubt it, which leads me to believe that in the future, people will have all switched to Jeet Kune Do.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby D Pope » 03 Nov 2011 21:49

Ohms law is I=R/E
Voltage has no kinetic energy.



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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2011 22:02

yeah, yeah... I've got other shit on my mind.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Dravition » 03 Nov 2011 22:18

Nekhrun wrote:
Dravition wrote:On a related tangent, I think a hard-style, such as tae kwon do ('the way of the hand and foot') is more in line with Honored Matres. It emphasizes power strikes, mostly designed to utilize a persons relatively large leg muscles. Even the forms of blocking are intended to deal damage to an opponents striking limbs.

Has there ever been a documented case in history where someone won a fight using Tae Kwon Do? I doubt it, which leads me to believe that in the future, people will have all switched to Jeet Kune Do.


Two things. First, I hope you don't truly believe that a system like Tae Kwon Do -- renowned and practiced in many parts of the world (fyi created by Korean peasants to defend themselves against armed, armored, and sometimes mounted soldiers) -- is entirely ineffective. Like any style, it has strengths, and it has weaknesses. If it had zero merit, few would know of it, and fewer would practice it. Second, the status of Bruce Lee and his style (Jeet Kune Do) within martial arts history has been massively inflated. I'm not claiming that he was fraud, or anything of that sort. He was, for his relatively short life, a dedicated practitioner and teacher of the martial way of life. What most people tend see past, though, is the fact that he was also a celebrity actor, and that popular perceptions of his abilities were largely created and perpetuated by the machinery of mainstream marketing. Furthermore, his untimely death has only fueled the ability of media interests to capitalize on 'the myth' of 'the legendary Bruce Lee'.
One last interesting 'fyi': Bruce Lee was instructed in Wing Tsun in his youth. He has even acknowledged the primacy of this system as an influence to his own.

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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby SandRider » 04 Nov 2011 00:47

personally, I've found most of the oriental "martial arts systems" to be extremely ineffective
against the Lone Star Beer Bottle to the Forehead Method ....
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Hunchback Jack » 04 Nov 2011 01:39

Does it have to be Lone Star, or will any brand suffice? Or would that be considered a lesser discipline?

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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby SandRider » 04 Nov 2011 03:04

the only beer bottle I've found that's heavier than a Lone Star is Heineken, but it don't break as sharp;
you can bash a shitheel's head in and stab him in the ear with the neck ... Budweisers shatter completely,
leaving you with a handful of broken, useless glass (altho the spray of shards can be a good psychological
tool against the shitheel's buddies ...)

all of the Miller Beer bottles are like that candy-glass stuff they use in the movies, and you can't break a
Guinness Bottle with a sledgehammer (which makes them a good bludgeon, but that a different thing ...)
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby SadisticCynic » 04 Nov 2011 07:07

Freakzilla wrote:I'm just giving you the text, man.


I know, sorry if I came across rather abruptly. :oops:
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Nekhrun » 04 Nov 2011 22:54

Dravition wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Dravition wrote:On a related tangent, I think a hard-style, such as tae kwon do ('the way of the hand and foot') is more in line with Honored Matres. It emphasizes power strikes, mostly designed to utilize a persons relatively large leg muscles. Even the forms of blocking are intended to deal damage to an opponents striking limbs.

Has there ever been a documented case in history where someone won a fight using Tae Kwon Do? I doubt it, which leads me to believe that in the future, people will have all switched to Jeet Kune Do.


Two things. First, I hope you don't truly believe that a system like Tae Kwon Do -- renowned and practiced in many parts of the world (fyi created by Korean peasants to defend themselves against armed, armored, and sometimes mounted soldiers) -- is entirely ineffective. Like any style, it has strengths, and it has weaknesses. If it had zero merit, few would know of it, and fewer would practice it. Second, the status of Bruce Lee and his style (Jeet Kune Do) within martial arts history has been massively inflated. I'm not claiming that he was fraud, or anything of that sort. He was, for his relatively short life, a dedicated practitioner and teacher of the martial way of life. What most people tend see past, though, is the fact that he was also a celebrity actor, and that popular perceptions of his abilities were largely created and perpetuated by the machinery of mainstream marketing. Furthermore, his untimely death has only fueled the ability of media interests to capitalize on 'the myth' of 'the legendary Bruce Lee'.
One last interesting 'fyi': Bruce Lee was instructed in Wing Tsun in his youth. He has even acknowledged the primacy of this system as an influence to his own.

Still Friends? :)

No problem. I happen to buy into the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do that unless human beings develop new appendages that there is an effective way to move that is fairly universal. It tends to rely on that. No question that Wing Chung/Fencing/Boxing were it's major influences, but it has definitely evolved beyond all three. The only thing I've found it to be missing is grappling, which Bruce was working on before he died.

Back to Tae Kwon Do, I think as an art it's still pretty cool, but in a fight with no rules I find very little of it to be very practical. The reason why so many people in the US (and probably other places) practice it is that it has become the McDonalds of Martial Arts. They start kids young and hand out belts when the check clears. We've got a shitload of 8-10 year old black belts in this country that could use an ass-kickin'. The thing I like about JKD is that it's not a style and incorporates anything that works. Back to the original point of the thread: I think the Bene Gesserit were trained in the minutiae of human behavior and could read someone's intent before they put any action into motion which could be intercepted and attacked before any real danger presented itself (kind of like Bruce Lee's philosophy).
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Nov 2011 01:32

I'm more of a Muay Thai kinda guy myself, just hurt people really badly without making it all fancy. Knees and elbows are hard, hit people with those, preferably in the head. It's pretty much the art of running into things and breaking them. :D Sorry, been watching too many Tony Jaa movies lately!
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Dravition » 05 Nov 2011 12:18

Nekhrun wrote:No problem. I happen to buy into the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do that unless human beings develop new appendages that there is an effective way to move that is fairly universal.
This is actually a fundamental principle of Wing Tsun. Every movement used in the system is incorporated into only three forms. And remember also, a basic tenet of Wing Tsun is to always strike directly along the shortest path between yourself and your target (efficiency of motion). So, the point is to control that line, thereby giving you the ability to strike will simultaneously denying your opponent the same freedom. The simplicity of the system -- ie the fact that there are only so many movements -- means that the Wing Tsun proponent will attempt block/deflect and strike simultaneously with singular movements. I encourage you to research this more if you find it as fascinating as I do. Moving on.

No question that Wing Chung/Fencing/Boxing were it's major influences, but it has definitely evolved beyond all three. The only thing I've found it to be missing is grappling, which Bruce was working on before he died.

1) I accept there were multiple influences on Jeet Koon Do (including boxing and fencing), but I maintain that Wing Tsun was the primary influence. 2) I give credit to the notion that Jeet Koon Do is a system with an explicit goal of transcending style-categorization. In a sense, it is a 'consciously-evolving' model of martial art. That said, it has yet to definitively prove itself as superior. Ultimately, such judgements are based on the abilities of individual practitioners of different styles. The style itself is not the important thing. Did you know that the 'Do' component the martial art naming convention means, 'the way' -- as in a path or a journey? The point is that a martial artist can find greatness regardless of the path/style that get's them there. It all depends on the person. 3) I agree that both Jeet Koon Do and Wing Tsun have little to offer in the way of grappling techniques. At least with Wing Tsun, the system was designed for close-quarter striking. The point is to not let the fight get to the ground. Remember my last post: 'all styles have strengths and weaknesses'.

Back to Tae Kwon Do, I think as an art it's still pretty cool, but in a fight with no rules I find very little of it to be very practical. The reason why so many people in the US (and probably other places) practice it is that it has become the McDonalds of Martial Arts. They start kids young and hand out belts when the check clears. We've got a shitload of 8-10 year old black belts in this country that could use an ass-kickin'.

Lol, I'm not going to argue with you on this. I will say, however: this is not a problem limited to Tae Kwon Do schools. The North American martial arts industries have been largely distorted and drained of traditional essences for the purpose of fitting them with the mainstream goals and expectations of our culture. Any school that uses the coloured-belt method of tracking a student's progress is evidence of this. In tradition martial arts, teachers/masters wore black belts to designate their status and authority, and students wore white belts. That was all. And the belts themselves were more important for their utility: they held up peoples pants. The coloured belt system was designed to satisfy the Westerner's need for constant gratification and desire for an objective measure of their skill. That's only one example. But anyway, the point here is that I agree with.

Back to the original point of the thread: I think the Bene Gesserit were trained in the minutiae of human behavior and could read someone's intent before they put any action into motion which could be intercepted and attacked before any real danger presented itself (kind of like Bruce Lee's philosophy).

I really like this part of your comment. You have a great point about the BG ('trained in the minutiae of human behavior and could read someone's intent before they put any action into motion'). I guess I would say that any style that emphasizes a sensitization to the flow of energy and force (Jeet Koon Do and Wing Tsun both do this) would be fitting for the BG. Remember, you might have insight into a person, and know that they want to attack you, but it is impossible to precisely predict how the attack will be expressed. What you can do with much training is learn to instinctively respond to such expressions as they happen -- and not only respond, but do so with great efficiency. Unfortunately, such abilities fall into the category, 'can't adequately describe/explain with words'. And so, that is all.

Good Chat :) Feel free to disagree, Nekhrun. You certainly have valid ideas, and I respect them.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Dravition » 05 Nov 2011 12:21

I'm more of a Muay Thai kinda guy myself, just hurt people really badly without making it all fancy. Knees and elbows are hard, hit people with those, preferably in the head. It's pretty much the art of running into things and breaking them.


ToE, Muay Thai is a much better match for the HM. Thanks for reminding me :)
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Serkanner » 05 Nov 2011 15:35

It must be silly me thinking about this but considering most of "you" are Americans where it is legal to wear fire arms, isn't it a bit ridiculous to discuss the benefits of martial arms. I mean ... the ones that actually wanna harm you do not approach you with a loud Kung Fu yell before they rob you of your wallet, do they? Here in Europe it might actually work because a lot of the lunatic muggers actually don't wear arms at all ... except their own ones of course; the ones with the hands and fingers I mean.
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Re: Bene Gesserit Martial Style

Postby Nekhrun » 05 Nov 2011 15:53

Dravition wrote:1) I accept there were multiple influences on Jeet Koon Do (including boxing and fencing), but I maintain that Wing Tsun was the primary influence.

No question, Bruce said as much and it was the style he trained in and taught before making his own realizations.
Dravition wrote:I encourage you to research this more if you find it as fascinating as I do.

:wink: I practiced Martial Arts for almost 30 years and was an instructor in T'ai Chi (Yang style) and Jeet Kune Do for 7 years. One of my teachers from time to time was Bruce's student Ted Wong. The only one of his students who did not train in another system before learning Jeet Kune Do. Sadly, he passed away not that long ago.
Dravition wrote:3) I agree that both Jeet Koon Do and Wing Tsun have little to offer in the way of grappling techniques. At least with Wing Tsun, the system was designed for close-quarter striking. The point is to not let the fight get to the ground.

Don't forget footwork. It is probably the single greatest weakness of that particular style. It's why Bruce incorporated boxing and fencing.

Dravition wrote:Remember my last post: 'all styles have strengths and weaknesses'.

I maintain that Jeet Kune Do does not as it is able to incorporate other concepts. To change with change is the changeless state. Bruce hated the limitations of any style. Instead he dealt with efficiency.

Dravition wrote:The North American martial arts industries have been largely distorted and drained of traditional essences for the purpose of fitting them with the mainstream goals and expectations of our culture.

Sadly, as a child, I participated in this nonsense. But it did eventually lead me to better things.

Dravition wrote:Good Chat :) Feel free to disagree, Nekhrun. You certainly have valid ideas, and I respect them.

Thanks. I have a feeling that we'd probably agree on far more than it would first appear.

Serkanner wrote:It must be silly me thinking about this but considering most of "you" are Americans where it is legal to wear fire arms, isn't it a bit ridiculous to discuss the benefits of martial arms.

There's a great interview with Bruce Lee where he mentions this very thing. He agrees with you that when a gun comes out then that's it. But like he said, "All knowledge is ultimately self-knowledge." Martial Arts is about how you understand your own body and it's relation to your space and how you interact with another person. It's not really about fighting at all. (I know this may seem like a contradiction :wink: )
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