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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 17 Sep 2012 13:39

    There are no worms in Star Wars. There's the sarlaac pit, but it's more of a Charybdis-like organism embedded in the sand than a worm. Of course, the first mention of the worm in Dune is likened to Charybdis when it swallows the harvester, but it's influence on Lucas is loose and didn't appear till Return of the Jedi. The worms were integrated in the expanded universe of Star Wars (like in the game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, and even I wanted worms to be on Tantooine I'm sorry to say :oops: ) but that's not George's fault. The Force, while is corresponds much with the Weirding Way, is more so inspired by the Shaolin Buddhist concept of ch'i ("inner strength") and the concentration abilities of Samurai fencers. Therefore, you've got Shaolin samurai, a fusion between two Eastern philosophies and martial arts. In speaking of Shaolin, George Lucas was also inspired by scenes from Bruce Lee's Enter the Dragon for some scenes. Remember the scene where Bruce hears his master's advice in the hall of mirrors?



    That scene inspired the "Use the Force, Luke!" scene at the end of A New Hope. Lucas was drawing so many influences, that's its amazing that out of all those influences, Frank Herbert, Isaac Asimov, and other high-brow sci-fi authors stood out as the main inspiration.
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Crizius » 17 Sep 2012 14:19

    I believe it's because while star wars steals scenes from other films (attack on death star from Dam Buster, Uncle' Owen's house burning-The Searchers, Lightsaber-Lucky Starr) It mainly re-tells Dune Story
    http://rip-offornot.com/DSW0001.php

    Now here is clever twist to that. While in Dune Paul (Anakin) finds out that the Baron is his grandfather in star wars Luke(Leto II) Finds out that the darth is his father so here is very clever reversal.

    Sure we could argue that it's "heros journey"...
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 17 Sep 2012 20:55

    Crizius wrote:I believe it's because while star wars steals scenes from other films (attack on death star from Dam Buster, Uncle' Owen's house burning-The Searchers, Lightsaber-Lucky Starr) It mainly re-tells Dune Story
    http://rip-offornot.com/DSW0001.php

    Now here is clever twist to that. While in Dune Paul (Anakin) finds out that the Baron is his grandfather in star wars Luke(Leto II) Finds out that the darth is his father so here is very clever reversal.

    Sure we could argue that it's "heros journey"...


    Actually, I would say that Luke is Paul, and Darth Vader is the Baron Harkonnen, except the Baron has no chance for redemption and was never a good guy. The Baron is kind of a pre-Darth Vader, in that they are both men in extremely bad shape and rely upon technology to keep themselves menacing and powerful.
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Crizius » 18 Sep 2012 09:17

    I compare Paul and Anakin because they are both Messiah who fail, both have twins and both's son do what they as Messiah were supposed to do (Well not counting Duncan Idaho)
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Crizius » 20 Sep 2012 07:59

    I rarely post because most of the time I feel I have nothing to add

    There is nothing to fear but fear itself for Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. Fear kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once.
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Sep 2012 11:59

    Crizius wrote:http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Dune&word2=star+wars


    Not really a fair fight. Different mediums and audiences. I wasn't reading Dune at seven years old.
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby georgiedenbro » 17 Sep 2014 22:48

    Freakzilla wrote:Just in case someone isn't familiar with the reference:

    Harkonnens had grown some of the finest pilingitam, a wood of steady currency,
    always valued by the supremely rich. From the most ancient times, the
    knowledgeable had preferred to surround themselves with fine woods rather than
    with the mass-produced artificial materials known then as polastine, polaz, and
    pormabat latterly: tine, laz, and bat). As far back as the Old Empire there
    had been a pejorative label for the small rich and Families Minor arising from
    the knowledge of a rare wood's value.
    "He's a three P-O," they said, meaning that such a person surrounded himself
    with cheap copies made from declasse substances. Even when the supremely rich
    were forced to employ one of the distressful three P-Os, they disguised it where
    possible behind O-P (the Only P), pilingitam.

    ~Heretics of Dune


    Wow, how did I never notice this? It may well prove that Frank thought Lucas ripped him off, although I'm still not really convinced that it's true. Lucas could have been just a big a fan of Lawrence of Arabia as Frank must have been, for instance, and then the rip off would really be of T.E. Lawrence. Small stuff like the space worm in Ep V and the spice mines of Kessel seem to me more like subtle nods to Dune than ripping off the story. None of the characters in Star Wars reminds me of anyone in Dune, and the Chinese/Japanese philosophical elements in SW seem remote from Frank's Islamic/Indian/European elements.
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Sep 2014 23:24

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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby georgiedenbro » 17 Sep 2014 23:38

    YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT, FREAK.



    OK maybe not
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 18 Sep 2014 00:54

    Freakzilla wrote:Image


    (In the voice of Jesus Quintana) Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."

    (back in normal voice)

    I couldn't resist responding that way, Freak.

    georgiedenbro wrote:YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT, FREAK.



    OK maybe not


    He's used the same line with during one of our intellectual crysknife duels. He can't help being a super cool rascal.

    georgiedenbro wrote:Wow, how did I never notice this? It may well prove that Frank thought Lucas ripped him off, although I'm still not really convinced that it's true. Lucas could have been just a big a fan of Lawrence of Arabia as Frank must have been, for instance, and then the rip off would really be of T.E. Lawrence. Small stuff like the space worm in Ep V and the spice mines of Kessel seem to me more like subtle nods to Dune than ripping off the story. None of the characters in Star Wars reminds me of anyone in Dune, and the Chinese/Japanese philosophical elements in SW seem remote from Frank's Islamic/Indian/European elements.


    I agree. I sense some Japanese aspects in Dune, in that the Fremen's religion is a fusion of Zen Buddhism (the Japanese equivalent of the Chinese Ch'an Buddhism) and Sunni Islam.

    The only source which explained the Star Wars equivalent of Spice is (wait for it) Keven J. Anderson's Star Wars book Jedi Search. It's probably one of the few good books KJA wrote (though my memory is a little thin, but I prefer him dabbling in Star Wars than I do him Dune). The only thing I remember about how the Star Wars Spice works is that it can work as a lie detector at times. Keep in mind, I only got this from the expanded universe. This article would explain it better.

    I totally see Lawrence of Arabia being an influence of Star Wars, since Lucas does have a bit of a David Lean influence in his style.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spice

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Crizius wrote:http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Dune&word2=star+wars


    Not really a fair fight. Different mediums and audiences. I wasn't reading Dune at seven years old.


    Interesting game, though I agree it's not fair. Don't dismiss seven year olds who read Dune, since most kids don't read books that long at that age. I myself read Dune when I was 12, and that was the beginning of enlightenment for me.
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby georgiedenbro » 18 Sep 2014 01:49

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:The only source which explained the Star Wars equivalent of Spice is (wait for it) Keven J. Anderson's Star Wars book Jedi Search. It's probably one of the few good books KJA wrote (though my memory is a little thin, but I prefer him dabbling in Star Wars than I do him Dune). The only thing I remember about how the Star Wars Spice works is that it can work as a lie detector at times. Keep in mind, I only got this from the expanded universe. This article would explain it better.


    The Jedi Academy Trilogy is...well let's just say...ok. WOW. It's really bad. The books that came before were a motley mix, some have mediocre writing with great ideas (Heir to the Empire), some piss poor writing with meh ideas. The standard back then wasn't that high, but some were ok. Then came the Jedi Academy Trilogy. It was ridiculous, included everything it shouldn't, and made everything stupid. It undid the work of several books before. Want some examples? :D

    1) Secret Imperial armada "hidden" between a cluster of black holes (wtf? power-creep even happens with natural phenomena?). This armada develops the infamous Sun Crusher, which is a small ship, indestructible, that can detonate a star and then move on to the next star and do the same. Penis envy, much, Kevin? Needed to top the Death Star, did you? And for the coup-de-gras this tiny ship has no weak point. None. Great writing there, champ. :liar:

    2) Actually nothing I say after #1 needs to be said because #1 is grade-A beginner's mistake in writing. Take a previous story, and try to one-up it in scale in every possible department to outdo and make the old one obsolete. Except that's not what happens - the new books looks like the asshole instead and people just say "meh I like the movie, you can keep the books."

    3) A dark jedi start infiltrating Luke's temple, and one of the students goes to the dark side and fights Luke. He apparently gives Luke trouble, aided by the dark side. More power creep? We know this event is ridiculous because Luke, who defeated Vader - the most powerful being in the universe except for the Emperor - is now having problems with a student who turns? Uh-huh. :naughty:

    4) The Great Evil worst bad-ass dead Sith comes back to make trouble for Luke. More power-creep, he was even more powerful than the Emperor, wouldn't you believe? :lol:

    5) A fallen jedi, Kyp Durron, steals the Sun Crusher (from the center of a sun where it had been chucked) and begins annihilating Imperial star systems. By 'coincidence' this ONE dark jedi HAPPENED to have made buddies with Han Solo earlier, of all people, and no force in the universe can stop Kyp from genocide; except for Han's friendship, which magically makes Kyp see the light and get rid of the Sun Crusher. :doh:

    This is typical KJA stuff, and is exactly the same garbage he wrote with Brian. All power-creep, all one-upping the last book(s), all about random shifts in power as the whimsy of his story needs, and 'great clashes of force' and always involve military or direct combat. Han stopping Kyp through friendship is the exception, and even then it's just contrived and a lame and anticlimactic way to end a genocide sub-plot. But mostly Kevin gets off on outrageously over-the-top story arcs and trying to outdo everyone else who wrote before him, rather than to humbly add to the tales of these characters. :crazy:

    My god this series was shit. It almost ruined my ability to read on, but thankfully many SW books are better than this one. I'd put the KJA SW books in the 10th percentile of quality compared to all the others. Of SW books, mind you, don't think this makes him 10th percentile of the greats in English literature...he's down at...what do you call it...oh yeah! The zeroth percentile. :x
    Last edited by georgiedenbro on 18 Sep 2014 14:22, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Sep 2014 07:42

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:It's probably one of the few good books KJA wrote.


    Strongly vaginal.
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 18 Sep 2014 13:30

    All those things you listed are why I like that trilogy. It's such an over the top version of Star Wars, with everything being taken to 11, that it kind of was inspiring in its ridiculousness. Granted, I think that maybe KJA is better suited writing video game design documents than books. And, I admit it, Jedi Search was one of the first full length books I read on my own when I was in 5th or 6th grade (my reading skills were kind of slow back then).

    Also admittedly, I only read KJA's Star Wars books to get inspiration for story and gameplay elements for a fan sequel for Star Wars Dark Forces (it was a period in my life when I was trying to design concepts for games, though I wasn't advanced enough to program). That's not to say that I liked everything in it, for there were some parts which embarrassed me (like the blob races).

    I also found it a bit creepy that Natasi Daala was a lover Grand Moff Tarkin (though not as creepy as learning from Children of the Jedi that Emperor Palpatine had mistresses). And Exar Kun's storyline did intrigue me, though it was very campy that his spirit was defeated by the power of group unity.

    Kyp Durron has remained a memorable character for me, especially because of his over the top fall to the Dark Side and redemption. He's not too bright, which may have led to his Dark Side seduction. (Kyp ends up leading a faction of self-righteous Jedi in The New Jedi Order who think that in order to be a formidable Jedi, you got to be super tough, so my judgment of him remains).

    I also admit (much to my shame) that originally thought KJA collaborating with BH was a good thing. When I got through the prequels, I sensed many things wrong in the narrative, characterization, and dialogue, that I saw the problem. I've only read the House trilogy, because I could barely get past the first few pages in Dune: Butlerian Jihad. I'm going to admit again that I did find the House trilogy compelling, even when I was bothered by the things I found wrong with it.

    But I could tell you this: I never thought the prequels were as well written as the original Dune.


    Freakzilla wrote:
    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:It's probably one of the few good books KJA wrote.


    Strongly vaginal.


    I know, but it smells and tastes so good. :lol: (I couldn't resist responding that way. Forgive my vulgar mind)
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Crizius » 23 Dec 2014 09:47

    Both Paul and Anakin are choosen ones, made without sex.
    Paul fails golden path, Anakin fails to bring the balance to the force.
    Paul was blinded in an atempet assassination by his fellow Fremen, Anakin lost half his body in duel against his fellow Jedi.
    Chani dies giving birth to twins, Padme Dies giving birth to twins.
    Paul turns into the preacher and goes into exile Anakin turns into Darth Vader.
    Preacher turns out to be Paul, Darth turn ous to bee Anakin.
    Leto redeems Paul, Luke redeems Vader.

    http://www.moongadget.com/origins/dune.html
    http://rip-offornot.com/DSW0001.php

    Sandcrawler=Sandcrawler
    Vision of Pardot Kynes appears to Liet-Kynes in the desert, while he's dying=Vision of Obi-Wan appears to Luke on Hoth, while he's seemingly dying
    Luke practices his lightsaber technique against an automated training remote=Alia practices her sword technique against an automated training dummy
    Leto and Ghanima=Luke and Leia
    Prana Bindu=Jedi Bendu
    The Empire=The Empire
    The voice=jedi mind trick

    the visual aspect of Star Wars resembled our style
    its influence popping up in everything from Star Wars to Raiders of the Lost Ar

    http://journalstar.com/entertainment/mo ... ef233.html
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby georgiedenbro » 23 Dec 2014 10:00

    Crizius wrote:Both Paul and Anakin are choosen ones, made without sex.
    Paul fails golden path, Anakin fails to bring the balance to the force.
    Paul was blinded in an atempet assassination by his fellow Fremen, Anakin lost half his body in duel against his fellow Jedi.
    Chani dies giving birth to twins, Padme Dies giving birth to twins.
    Paul turns into the preacher and goes into exile Anakin turns into Darth Vader.
    Preacher turns out to be Paul, Darth turn ous to bee Anakin.
    Leto redeems Paul, Luke redeems Vader.


    I guess I'll just say that Paul wasn't made without sex, and that he didn't 'fail' the Golden Path, he rejected it. Also Anakin succeeded in bringing balance to the force, for those that missed that point. After he was done, 2 Sith (Palpatine and him), 2 Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan). I'm also not sure that Leto 'redeems' Paul in any discernible way; if anything he shows Paul the error in avoiding the Golden Path. Not that Paul needed redeeming, he chose in the end to eschew power once he learned its true limitations.

    The later points I've seen before, which I guess we mostly attribute to Lucas borrowing some ideas.
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Crizius » 24 Dec 2014 11:04

    I guess I'll just say that Paul wasn't made without sex.Yeah, Paul was made with sex, it's joke I took from another site. Sounded better in my head, but still Paul was part of Bene Gesserit breeding program, while Anakin was ?part of sith breeding program? "It was the theory of Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn that the will of the Force caused his birth"
    He didn't 'fail' the Golden Path, he rejected it.Might say that Anakin didn't failed the prophecy when he turned to the dark side, he only postponed it.
    Also Anakin succeeded in bringing balance to the force, for those that missed that point. After he was done, 2 Sith (Palpatine and him), 2 Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan). Honestly this is one of the more contreversial or better word confusing parts of the prequals. Different people have different interpretation on what the prophecy exactly means. " It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them" Some people claim hat Anakin fulfiled the propercy when he killed Sheev Palpatine at the end of Return of the Jedi and he only did that thanks to Luke.Who knows whats was going on in head of George Lucas. That's the problem with all these "choosen ones" storylines, can you really bring balance to something? Forever? According to EU there were still multiple Jedi and Sith left. I think you can only bring balance to something only for a while. "As long as my heart pumps blood, I will always fight tyranny. As long injustice exists I will fight it. And once I'm dead, once it returns, other men will continue my work".Benjamin George Jefferson a Man who refused title of lord in favour of equality. Man who rebelled against the tyranny of the empire and one of founders and the first president of Terran Federation.


    I'm also not sure that Leto 'redeems' Paul in any discernible way; if anything he shows Paul the error in avoiding the Golden Path. Not that Paul needed redeeming, he chose in the end to eschew power once he learned its true limitations. I'm sure you are right, but thats the matter of interpretation.

    The later points I've seen before, which I guess we mostly attribute to Lucas borrowing some ideas. "Borrowing"
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    Re: Star Wars & Dune

    Postby Crizius » 24 Dec 2014 11:05

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    Crizius wrote:Both Paul and Anakin are choosen ones, made without sex.
    Paul fails golden path, Anakin fails to bring the balance to the force.
    Paul was blinded in an atempet assassination by his fellow Fremen, Anakin lost half his body in duel against his fellow Jedi.
    Chani dies giving birth to twins, Padme Dies giving birth to twins.
    Paul turns into the preacher and goes into exile Anakin turns into Darth Vader.
    Preacher turns out to be Paul, Darth turn ous to bee Anakin.
    Leto redeems Paul, Luke redeems Vader.


    I guess I'll just say that Paul wasn't made without sex, and that he didn't 'fail' the Golden Path, he rejected it. Also Anakin succeeded in bringing balance to the force, for those that missed that point. After he was done, 2 Sith (Palpatine and him), 2 Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan). I'm also not sure that Leto 'redeems' Paul in any discernible way; if anything he shows Paul the error in avoiding the Golden Path. Not that Paul needed redeeming, he chose in the end to eschew power once he learned its true limitations.

    The later points I've seen before, which I guess we mostly attribute to Lucas borrowing some ideas.


    I guess I'll just say that Paul wasn't made without sex.Yeah, Paul was made with sex, it's joke I took from another site. Sounded better in my head, but still Paul was part of Bene Gesserit breeding program, while Anakin was ?part of sith breeding program? "It was the theory of Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn that the will of the Force caused his birth"
    He didn't 'fail' the Golden Path, he rejected it.Might say that Anakin didn't failed the prophecy when he turned to the dark side, he only postponed it.
    Also Anakin succeeded in bringing balance to the force, for those that missed that point. After he was done, 2 Sith (Palpatine and him), 2 Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan). Honestly this is one of the more contreversial or better word confusing parts of the prequals. Different people have different interpretation on what the prophecy exactly means. " It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them" Some people claim hat Anakin fulfiled the propercy when he killed Sheev Palpatine at the end of Return of the Jedi and he only did that thanks to Luke.Who knows whats was going on in head of George Lucas. That's the problem with all these "choosen ones" storylines, can you really bring balance to something? Forever? According to EU there were still multiple Jedi and Sith left. I think you can only bring balance to something only for a while. "As long as my heart pumps blood, I will always fight tyranny. As long injustice exists I will fight it. And once I'm dead, once it returns, other men will continue my work".Benjamin George Jefferson a Man who refused title of lord in favour of equality. Man who rebelled against the tyranny of the empire and one of founders and the first president of Terran Federation.
    I'm also not sure that Leto 'redeems' Paul in any discernible way; if anything he shows Paul the error in avoiding the Golden Path. Not that Paul needed redeeming, he chose in the end to eschew power once he learned its true limitations. I'm sure you are right, but thats the matter of interpretation.

    The later points I've seen before, which I guess we mostly attribute to Lucas borrowing some ideas. "Borrowing"
    I rarely post because most of the time I feel I have nothing to add

    There is nothing to fear but fear itself for Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. Fear kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once.
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