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Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 24 Sep 2012 00:51
by Naïve mind
Hey, just re-read Dune Messiah, and while reading it, I noticed a couple of things:

1. Paul seems profoundly affected by the return of Duncan Idaho. It's explained that Duncan was a childhood friend, even someone with feelings of surrogate fatherhood for Paul, but the thing is, he doesn't have as big a role in the first novel. There's nothing remarkable about Duncan in the original Dune, no indication that he is to become the character that links the whole series together.
2. Even Alia is stirred by his arrival. She shouldn't even remember him through anything but her other memories.
3. Alia makes a remark about Hayt's flying style. Duncan Idaho does not pilot a thopter in the original novel. Leto I does.
4. Hayt has his first episode of 'remembrance' when he flies over the burial tomb of Leto I.

Much of the novel still works if you imagine Hayt to be a Leto I ghola instead of one of Duncan Idaho. Paul's deep affection for him, and his inability to rid himself of the dangerous gift. Alia's attraction could be explained as her mother's memories awakening passions in her own flesh--even though their relationship would be much more disturbing. And of course, like Duncan Idaho, Leto I would be deeply unable to slay his own son.

After Messiah, however, things would diverge rapidly. Even if Hayt-Leto could entertain a relationship with Alia, a re-awakened Leto I never would. After the passing of Paul, there's no real reason why Leto would not be expected to re-claim the Atreides dukedom, although the Fremen would never give their assent to a Ghola emperor.

The series would've taken a different direction at this point, and I wonder if it really is one that Herbert considered and discarded.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 24 Sep 2012 09:43
by Freakzilla
Naïve mind wrote:Hey, just re-read Dune Messiah, and while reading it, I noticed a couple of things:

1. Paul seems profoundly affected by the return of Duncan Idaho. It's explained that Duncan was a childhood friend, even someone with feelings of surrogate fatherhood for Paul, but the thing is, he doesn't have as big a role in the first novel. There's nothing remarkable about Duncan in the original Dune, no indication that he is to become the character that links the whole series together.


Duncan, Gurney and Thufir were Paul's teachers and only friends. Duncan dies saving Paul.

2. Even Alia is stirred by his arrival. She shouldn't even remember him through anything but her other memories.


Yeah, so? Alia was became aware in the womb with all her mother and father's memories of Duncan, she knew him as they did.

3. Alia makes a remark about Hayt's flying style. Duncan Idaho does not pilot a thopter in the original novel. Leto I does.


Duncan meets Paul and Jessica in the desert in a 'thopter after the Harkonnen attack on Arrakeen. Even if he didn't, do you think he's never flown a 'thopter before that?

4. Hayt has his first episode of 'remembrance' when he flies over the burial tomb of Leto I.


Leto rescued Duncan from Harkonnen bondage.

Much of the novel still works if you imagine Hayt to be a Leto I ghola instead of one of Duncan Idaho. Paul's deep affection for him, and his inability to rid himself of the dangerous gift. Alia's attraction could be explained as her mother's memories awakening passions in her own flesh--even though their relationship would be much more disturbing. And of course, like Duncan Idaho, Leto I would be deeply unable to slay his own son.

After Messiah, however, things would diverge rapidly. Even if Hayt-Leto could entertain a relationship with Alia, a re-awakened Leto I never would. After the passing of Paul, there's no real reason why Leto would not be expected to re-claim the Atreides dukedom, although the Fremen would never give their assent to a Ghola emperor.

The series would've taken a different direction at this point, and I wonder if it really is one that Herbert considered and discarded.



Sorry, don't see it.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 25 Sep 2012 00:38
by Naïve mind
Freakzilla wrote:Duncan, Gurney and Thufir were Paul's teachers and only friends. Duncan dies saving Paul.


Undoubtedly many people died saving Paul. At least Thufir and Gurney have some semblance of characterisation in the first novel, some inner dialogue. Duncan is a cipher. A good soldier, and nothing more.

Once Herbert decided that characters could be brought back to life, he must've carefully considered which characters to bring back to life, and why. Who would be the most natural choice?

Leto I is in many ways the moral anchor of the first book. An aristocrat who is honestly, self-consciously honest, almost despite himself. Someone who fights the tide of history, even if it is his undoing.

As Paul (and later Leto II) shift towards a more fluid utilitarianism, channeling the tides of history, allowing terrible things to be done in the Atreides name, Leto I would've been a natural foil for them; a daddy figure whose sense of right and wrong tells him his son and grandson are doing terrible evil. The incarnation of 'old Atreides' values.

2. Even Alia is stirred by his arrival. She shouldn't even remember him through anything but her other memories.

Yeah, so? Alia was became aware in the womb with all her mother and father's memories of Duncan, she knew him as they did.


[i}Messiah[/i] mentions rather explicitly that she only awakened to the memories of the female line; we can presume the male line memories arrived at some later point. But that being said, would an 'inherited' memory be so poignant? Odrade has the Atreides ancestral memory--is she similarly stirred by the sight of Duncan Idaho?

Meeting your dead, lost father, now that would be an intimidating experience, even if you have no memory of the man.

Duncan meets Paul and Jessica in the desert in a 'thopter after the Harkonnen attack on Arrakeen. Even if he didn't, do you think he's never flown a 'thopter before that?


I stand corrected. But I didn't mean to point out a plot hole--just that the comparison isn't obvious. "You hold a sword in the same way Duncan did" or "You glug that spice wine in the same way Duncan did" would've been more natural comparisons, no?

The more I think about, the more I become convinced that, at some stage in the creative process that lead to Messiah[i], [i]Children and God-Emperor, Hayt was Leto I, not Duncan.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 13 Jan 2013 06:20
by distrans
do you think leto himself would have done a better job that duncan as woo'ing the fremen?
i think dune showed duncan to be more than just a good soldier. it took an exceptional diplomat and liasons officer to ferret out the extent and abilitys of the wild fremen

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 13 Jan 2013 10:39
by Freakzilla
Duncan in that role was like that of modern US Special Forces. "Winning of hearts and minds" as a form of counterinsurgency.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 13 Jan 2013 22:04
by distrans
arent insurgencies minority act on behalf of the greater body of harmed and abused?
cant see harkonnens in any way shape or for meeting this criteria

special forces never win hearts and minds,
they punish
force good people into capitulations

they back up isolated minorities locally who are willing to finger fellow citizens for assination
that are encouraged to indicate whos elimination from competition would further their own singular interests

local minorities first identified by inteligence assets who went around asking who wouldnt mind that most of the town was burned out if they got ahead in the process

bad anology


if anything,
the atredies were the insurgency
the harkonnens represented the leading powers agent, who were throughly discredited in prosecution of their state authoried reason for being there.

the beaurocrats who could only point at their charges character flaws to explain their inability to produce as promised

their actions after being replaced represent the 'stay-behind' assets every power uses when its overt authority is forced to concent.


idaho represents stand out individuals who fought against imperalisms grostesque fact
individuals who rallied legions of abused whom the imperiums press fail to even note exist
fighters who enter hostilities without the childhood indoctrination a ruling societys typical morals lacking
welfare dripping
special forces type

drags into action
like a lead weight

bagage which hampers adaptation
imaginative thinking

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 14 Jan 2013 07:20
by Mr. Teg
Naïve mind wrote:Leto 1....The incarnation of 'old Atreides' values.


I don't have the books with me at the moment and I don't remember the exact quote ( and I'm quickly reaching Sandrider level drunkeness) but isn't that what the GE Leto said about Duncan. Duncan was the old Atreides values. So Duncan was a better choice for Herbert as far as introducing an Atreides ghola compared to Leto 1. Duncan had the old values plus swordmanship, plus looks and the name is a Shakespearen name. Shakespeare had a big impact on Herbert.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 15 Jan 2013 19:55
by Hunchback Jack
It's an interesting idea, but I don't think FH would have seriously considered bringing Leto back as a ghola in DM.

Leto is the mentor to Paul's hero. For the hero to come of age, the mentor must step aside or die. But the mentor should remain the ideal to which the hero strives, by which he is guided. In Paul's case, Leto's death is also his motivation for regaining control of Arrakis from the Harkonnens.

It would have gained FH very little to bring Leto back in DM. It would have weakened Paul's role as protagonist, and blemished Leto as Paul's ideal.

HBJ

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 16 Jan 2013 05:06
by inhuien
That and a succession issue when he regained his memories.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 14:10
by Naïve mind
Hunchback Jack wrote:Leto is the mentor to Paul's hero. For the hero to come of age, the mentor must step aside or die. But the mentor should remain the ideal to which the hero strives, by which he is guided. In Paul's case, Leto's death is also his motivation for regaining control of Arrakis from the Harkonnens.

It would have gained FH very little to bring Leto back in DM. It would have weakened Paul's role as protagonist, and blemished Leto as Paul's ideal.


Hmm, interesting argument. It seems you think it's a silly idea for almost the same reasons I think it's a workable one.

To be honest, I think your argument is fair. Paul was not actually evil, just, like his son, weighing the consequences of his actions on a different scale and timeframe than everyone else. Leto I would've looked short-sighted and dumb by comparison, thus tarnishing him.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 16:21
by lotek
also, alia was moved by hayt because her prescience showed her the faceless man who would be her mate, and for someone who knew all about sex she still was a teenage girl, physically

also, you shoul always keep in mind the way Dune is written, or more precisely how it avoids the unecessary.

so if paul is offered hayt, it is the reason in itself, you fill in the gaps yourself as to the relationship of paul and duncan.

if frank/the conspirators picked him, then he is and becomes the best choice.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 22:22
by SandChigger
lotek wrote:and for someone who knew all about sex she still was a teenage girl, physically

Yep. I was thinking as I was reading Freak's response, "It's the kus."

Never forget the effects of the siren call of the bearded peach fish. ;)

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 21 Jan 2013 01:56
by Jabecca
SandChigger wrote:
lotek wrote:and for someone who knew all about sex she still was a teenage girl, physically

Yep. I was thinking as I was reading Freak's response, "It's the kus."

Never forget the effects of the siren CALL of the BEARDED peach FISH. ;)


You called!
Damn, yuz Jacurutu a horny bunch!
Plenty of Becca for everybody!

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 21 Jan 2013 07:27
by Cpt. Aramsham
Well, I think it's an interesting theory. Duncan 's role as a character clearly developed a lot throughout the series, and it's valid to ask how much continuity there is between who he is in the original book and in his first reappearance (and speculate about the origins of any discrepancies).

For example, DM implies that Duncan was killed and his body preserved by Sardaukar in the course of Paul's victory (to explain why Irulan never heard of his preservation, she's told: "your father was a defeated man and within a few hours you had been sold to the new Emperor"), while in fact he died two years prior, in the aftermath of Duke Leto's defeat. Just a continuity goof, or something more?

Nor do I think we can say that just because FH ended up going with Duncan as the ghola, that was necessarily his idea all along. The story didn't come to him fully formed in every detail, it was something he worked out by writing and rewriting, exploring different options. (For example, didn't Alia die at the end of Dune instead of baby Leto in one of his earlier drafts?) And if it wasn't the original plan, there might still be traces of his earlier conception in the final version of the story.

But really, we can speculate however much we like, argue and find the theory more or less plausible, but the only way to actually get an answer is to go look at the original manuscript, drafts and notes.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 16 Apr 2013 05:40
by Freakzilla
Moved

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 19 Apr 2013 01:36
by Jodorowsky's Acolyte
It would be really awkward to have the ghola of your Dad look like your favorite buddy, and then see that ghola make moves on your sister and marry her...

Your speculation is uncomfortable on so many levels. :?

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 20 Apr 2013 01:39
by Naïve mind
:lol:

The Tleilaxu enjoy making people feel uncomfortable. They're the Dune Universe analogue to seventeen-year-old Internet Trolls.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 03 Nov 2013 03:00
by cmsahe
Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:It would be really awkward to have the ghola of your Dad look like your favorite buddy, and then see that ghola make moves on your sister and marry her...

Your speculation is uncomfortable on so many levels. :?


I was like yikes! when I read Asimov's The Robots of Dawn, the part where Fastolfe tells Elijah Baily about the sexual offerings by his own daughter Vasilia.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 04 Nov 2013 08:59
by lotek
How about Maureen J. Long having sex with her son Lazarus?

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 04 Nov 2013 13:14
by Serkanner
lotek wrote:How about Maureen J. Long having sex with her son Lazarus?


Heinlein at his best. In the Number of the Beast we also had a father and a daughter having sex. And how about the two sisters Lapis and Lazuli.

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 06 Nov 2013 20:25
by Robspierre
Time Enough for Love, Lazarus Long sleeping with his cloned twins Lapis and Lazuli, with tears and chin quivering if he didn't.

Rob

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 07 Nov 2013 17:56
by Serkanner
Robspierre wrote:Time Enough for Love, Lazarus Long sleeping with his cloned twins Lapis and Lazuli, with tears and chin quivering if he didn't.

Rob


Yes! I still have wet dreams about the twins ... :oops:

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 08 Nov 2013 05:50
by lotek
Serkanner wrote:
Robspierre wrote:Time Enough for Love, Lazarus Long sleeping with his cloned twins Lapis and Lazuli, with tears and chin quivering if he didn't.

Rob


Yes! I still have wet dreams about the twins ... :oops:


Who doesn't? :)

Thanks for bringing back all those memories!

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 10 Nov 2013 18:51
by Jodorowsky's Acolyte
I've missed out on a lot of Heinlein's work, as much as the rest of classic sci-fi which features such uninhibited sexual scenarios. The only sci-fi I've read which crazy sexual escapades were Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune, and Stranger in a Strange Land... Oh, and The Light of Other Days by Clarke and Baxter, but it wasn't as creative as Herbert or Henlein.

If Wurlitzer's screenplay ever was adapted into film, it would have made Dune a little more Heinlein-esque.

It makes me wonder, though. How come some classic sci-fi authors have incorporated so much insane sexual content, some of which can be too insane for comfort, into their writings? How did the explicit sex scenes served Herbert's purpose in Heretics and Chapterhouse? How do the incestuous scenes in To Sail Beyond the Sunset and other works serve Heinlein's purpose?

Re: Was Hayt intended to be a ghola of Leto I?

Posted: 11 Nov 2013 12:23
by Naïve mind
Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:It makes me wonder, though. How come some classic sci-fi authors have incorporated so much insane sexual content, some of which can be too insane for comfort, into their writings?


I recently read a quote by Larry Niven about Heinlein, something like: "Heinlein spent much of his life battling the censors, and never recognised that his writing was improved by a little censorship."

That's something to consider. Much of what Heinlein and Herbert wrote would've been considered raunchy, and simply unpublishable in the 1940s and 1950s.

Heinlein was able to write a meaningful story that was about sex, that was both good science fiction and tagged along to a meaningful change in social values, brought about by birth control.

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:How did the explicit sex scenes served Herbert's purpose in Heretics and Chapterhouse?


Writing about sex, in the 1960s (and well after that) was a good way to bring about a socially conditioned, utterly predictable kneejerk response in your readers. It was the closest thing to Voice Herbert had, and I think most instances of it are intended to "push our buttons.", so to speak. We're supposed to feel sympathetic to Duncan and Murbella, because their passion for each other feels genuine and warm-blooded. We're supposed to feel alienated and disgusted by the Sisterhood's plans to sexually condition eight year-old Miles Teg. We're supposed to be revolted by the Bene Tleilax revelation of the true nature of the Axelotl tanks.

And note that there's a passionate romance in almost every story Frank Herbert wrote. It might just be something he liked to include.