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Posted: 12 Apr 2013 15:18
by praki

(I'm new to the site so I'm not sure if I've opened this topic in the right section(Reading Group) or should I move it to Dune Discussion.)

I've read Dune Messiah twice (last time about 6 monthes ago) but the conspiracy confused me each time I've read the book. Somehow some steps of the conspirators, for me, doesn't make any sense at all or I consider them as mistakes. I think Frank Herbert was a really creative and inteligent writer so I don't think he made mistakes and paradoxes in the stories of his books! Can somebody help me to understand the conspiracy?

My first question is, why Scytale killed Otheym's daughter? If Otheym wanted to send his daughter to Paul, he would send her, so why replace her with a facedancer? Was Otheym a conspirator? (I remember as he wasn't)

(Maybe I don't remember some parts of the story correctly, so please correct me if I'm wrong, also note that I'm not a native english speaker, so sorry for my english :wink: )

Re: conspiracy

Posted: 12 Apr 2013 20:18
by SadisticCynic
(I suspect this thread will be moved.)

I've just read Dune Messiah, so I think I can answer you're question. Scytale wanted access to Paul to test the possibility of several plots against him. He knew Otheym's daughter, the daughter of a Fedaykin, would not be refused entrance, so he copied her.

Otheym was part of the conspiracy of Fremen, but I'm not sure that conspiracy was related to the alliance of the Guild, BG and BT introduced in the first couple of chapters, although they may have dealt with each other. That was always unclear to me.

Re: conspiracy

Posted: 14 Apr 2013 13:31
by praki
Thank for your answer!

SadisticCynic wrote:Scytale wanted access to Paul to test the possibility of several plots against him.

But I don't really get this :( Can you explain it a bit more detailed? For example: why the possibility of another conspiracy against Paul is so important for Scytale (he risked his own life to get that information)?

Re: conspiracy

Posted: 14 Apr 2013 14:11
by SadisticCynic
I'm looking back over that chapter and I think I mixed up some things. When I said 'several plots' I was thinking of Scytale's plan here, and also Reverend Mother Mohiam's idea of breeding Alia and Paul.

It seems Scytale knew about the Fremen plot, and used it for his own plans. By exposing the Fremen plot, Scytale forces Paul to go to Otheym and put himself in danger. Then they are able to hit him with the stone burner radiation.

Scytale risked his life because he is the only one able to move the conspiracy forward, by making Paul go outside.

I hope that helps a bit. :)

Re: conspiracy

Posted: 14 Apr 2013 14:48
by praki
Yeah it makes some parts clear! :D But there's still a lot confusing things for me...

If Otheym was a conspirator he could send his daughter to Paul anytime. So a facedancer would be needles.
Why wolud Scytale and the other conspirators risk Paul's life ? I mean the stone burner colud kill him. And if it had killed him the breeding plan would have failed...
Was their plan to blind him? Than why? I mean how would they knew about the details of the final scene, that Paul will lose his vision at the moment of the birth of his children?

Re: conspiracy

Posted: 14 Apr 2013 17:42
by SadisticCynic
I think there are two different conspiracies*, one involving Scytale, Irulan and the rest, while the other is a conspiracy amongst the Fremen.

I don't believe Otheym was a part of the first conspiracy at all. He claims he pretended to be in the Fremen conspiracy in order to get information about it. In other words he was loyal to Paul. I suppose he could have sent his daughter anytime, but as it happens he didn't. The importance of Scytale replacing her is that he can push Paul into doing certain things.

I think they did plan to blind him. Probably because they know the Fremen law about the blind walking into the desert. Paul is weakened by blindness and to continue as ruler he would have to rely completely on his visions. If he follows his visions then it is as if all responsibility for what happens falls on him.

So the main conspiracy wants to make Paul think he failed, that all the bad things that happen are due to his choices. He chose to go to Otheym's house, so it is his fault that he is blind. That sort of thing.

On the other hand, I don't think the conspirators know the strength of Paul's vision, and that he is following the path willingly. Paul believes the alternatives to be even worse.

*And I hope my sietch fellows will interrupt if I start saying something stupid.

Re: conspiracy

Posted: 16 Apr 2013 05:38
by Freakzilla