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    Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Apr 2014 09:18

    I'm currently rereading HoD and something had been bugging me since the one of the first few chapters:

    Waff, the Tleilaxu Master of Masters says, "And the ghola on Gammu, this ghola at this time, was worth all of the waiting."

    Then, about a third of the way into the book the Tleixaxu attach the Bene Gesserit keep on Gammu with the obvious intention of killing Duncan.

    WTF? What am I missing here? :?
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 24 Apr 2014 00:44

    Freakzilla wrote:I'm currently rereading HoD and something had been bugging me since the one of the first few chapters:

    Waff, the Tleilaxu Master of Masters says, "And the ghola on Gammu, this ghola at this time, was worth all of the waiting."

    Then, about a third of the way into the book the Tleixaxu attach the Bene Gesserit keep on Gammu with the obvious intention of killing Duncan.

    WTF? What am I missing here? :?


    Perhaps they realized at the last minute that the Duncan ghola had some other super secret of the Tleilaxu's inside him, and wanted to kill him before the Bene Gesserit discovered that secret? There's the obvious secret of Duncan being able to sexual parry any BG who tries to imprint him, but maybe they accidentally put inside of him another secret ability that they hadn't perfected yet or was too embarrassing to be found out by their enemies. The question is, what did the Tleilaxu accidentally put in him?
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Serkanner » 24 Apr 2014 06:09

    Freakzilla wrote:I'm currently rereading HoD and something had been bugging me since the one of the first few chapters:

    Waff, the Tleilaxu Master of Masters says, "And the ghola on Gammu, this ghola at this time, was worth all of the waiting."

    Then, about a third of the way into the book the Tleixaxu attach the Bene Gesserit keep on Gammu with the obvious intention of killing Duncan.

    WTF? What am I missing here? :?


    Hmmm ... If this was the Duncan worth the waiting they probably had the possibility to create hem again I assume. Then it would make sense to take this Dunacan away from the Sisterhood.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Apr 2014 09:42

    The only thing I can think of is that something happened inbetween that made the BT decide to assasinate Duncan, and that would be Waff's meeting with the Honored Matre. Since Duncan was a weapon aimed at imprining a BG imprinter, maybe they realized from the NFD's absorbed memories of the HM that Duncan's skills would work against the HMs also and knew that if they found out the HMs would go berzerk on the BT?
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby distrans » 26 Apr 2014 18:47

    dont remember how many
    but i recall that it was mentioned that they had killed over half a dozen duncan ghola's theyd provided the BG which sound like recent events; not some old history

    that comment could be seen to include all of them as i dont think we are ever informed about any distinction between these ghola's
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Apr 2014 07:46

    distrans wrote:dont remember how many
    but i recall that it was mentioned that they had killed over half a dozen duncan ghola's theyd provided the BG which sound like recent events; not some old history

    that comment could be seen to include all of them as i dont think we are ever informed about any distinction between these ghola's


    I believe the Duncan in HoD was the twelfth (for the BG). But that's my point, it was made clear that the BT were assasinating them to control the timing of something, I assume the Tleilaxu ascendancy.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby distrans » 28 Apr 2014 18:25

    the Tleilaxu thought they were holding somethings so enticing to the Gesserit

    that they were going to be able to assimilate them
    as the Gesserit late did the Matre

    after theyd out manouvered the tleilaxu
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby distrans » 28 Apr 2014 18:29

    there must have been a sckism in theilxu
    after the face dancers began imprinting masters

    it was barely aluded to
    is there any suggestion of how far back this had started to occur?
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 02 May 2014 19:46

    Damn. I'm clearly going to have to read Heretics again. I've forgotten so much of it, but I really like it.

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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 May 2014 13:47

    Something about the ending I've just never really gotten. I know that from the begining the BG state that they suspect the BT have tampered with the ghola. Of course, they have, they've programmed him to sexually bond and kill BG imprinters with secret knowledge brought to them by Tleilaxu returned from The Scattering. All that makes sense.

    But... the HM and the BG, at least Taraza seem to have known about this in the end. How? Spies are hinted at both by Waff and Taraza but this is never confirmed and I find it hard to believe in either case, especially in the BG. A Reverend Mother would smell a spy like a fart in church. Murbella and other HMs on Gammu were warned about a the ghola with the sexual bonding knowledge but Waff doesn't seem to know about HM sexual techniques until he kills the HM on the the no-ship and NFDs copy their memories.

    In the end, Teg tells Odrade that the whole time Idaho was bait to get the HM to destroy Rakis (and the BT) but he also says that he has to change Taraza's plan and Idaho and Sheana must leave Rakis. This makes no sense to me.

    :? :think:
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby distrans » 08 May 2014 21:15

    when teg said idaho was the bait
    isnt he speaking of Tleilaxu plans?

    i think the tleilaxu thought the BG would rally to protect rakis
    and that they were going to had teg not taken control and subverted their original plan

    where does this book fall timewise in regard to the tleilaxu finally producing spice and
    when the ixians built machines that could fold space?


    i would bet that the guild who had to be keeping a close eye on the tleilaxu
    was open to selling the BG "inteligence" on them

    not to mention
    the way tar handles waff shows such clear mastery of what he thought his secret religion
    its always seemed farfetched to me that this was simple based on planting women among them thousands of years back before they stopped allowing their women to have any higher cortex functions
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 May 2014 06:21

    distrans wrote:when teg said idaho was the bait
    isnt he speaking of Tleilaxu plans?


    The BG we'ren't afraid of the BT.

    i think the tleilaxu thought the BG would rally to protect rakis
    and that they were going to had teg not taken control and subverted their original plan


    Why?

    where does this book fall timewise in regard to the tleilaxu finally producing spice and
    when the ixians built machines that could fold space?


    Seriously? The Ixian Navigation Machine was invented at the end of GEoD. The BT had been producing spice long before this book. I don't believe FH ever says exactly when they started, but it must have been after The Scattering and Famine Times or the HM would not be after BG spice knowledge. However it had been going on long enough for Rakis to be considered a secondary source and severely deflate prices.

    i would bet that the guild who had to be keeping a close eye on the tleilaxu
    was open to selling the BG "inteligence" on them


    The Guild was dependent on the BT for spice and esentially a non-player at this point.

    not to mention
    the way tar handles waff shows such clear mastery of what he thought his secret religion
    its always seemed farfetched to me that this was simple based on planting women among them thousands of years back before they stopped allowing their women to have any higher cortex functions


    What? Taraza recognized Islamiat, Sufi and Zensunni in Waff from other memory and Missionaria Protectiva teachings. The BG knew practically nothing about the BT.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby distrans » 09 May 2014 21:45

    forgive the poor manipulation of this format
    ivent a clue as to how to manage a concise response that readable

    Freakzilla wrote:
    distrans wrote:when teg said idaho was the bait
    isnt he speaking of Tleilaxu plans?


    The BG we'ren't afraid of the BT.

    never said they were
    i said teg saw into their plan and altered plans tar had made NOT being able to see what teg did

    i think the tleilaxu thought the BG would rally to protect rakis
    and that they were going to had teg not taken control and subverted their original plan


    Why?

    leaving the worm whispering girl on rakis
    if the BG plan was to provoke rakis destructions
    there would have been much better options to save them than teg happening to drop in out of the blue with a stolen skattering no ship

    where does this book fall timewise in regard to the tleilaxu finally producing spice and
    when the ixians built machines that could fold space?


    Seriously? The Ixian Navigation Machine was invented at the end of GEoD. The BT had been producing spice long before this book. I don't believe FH ever says exactly when they started, but it must have been after The Scattering and Famine Times or the HM would not be after BG spice knowledge. However it had been going on long enough for Rakis to be considered a secondary source and severely deflate prices.

    and THAT why i asked,
    buc i aint the genius whos got it all commited to memory....

    i would bet that the guild who had to be keeping a close eye on the tleilaxu
    was open to selling the BG "inteligence" on them


    The Guild was dependent on the BT for spice and esentially a non-player at this point.


    id be interested in the quote here
    the guild got alot of spice sacking dune after the god emperor was killed
    never heard it posited that they ran faster than the BG after that episode
    and before dar found the last of leto's horde

    not to mention
    the way tar handles waff shows such clear mastery of what he thought his secret religion
    its always seemed farfetched to me that this was simple based on planting women among them thousands of years back before they stopped allowing their women to have any higher cortex functions


    What? Taraza recognized Islamiat, Sufi and Zensunni in Waff from other memory and Missionaria Protectiva teachings. The BG knew practically nothing about the BT.



    you make my point
    recognizing the language and being able to adeptly using it against the devoted eons later are different

    the EASE with which tar turns knowing he tongue into knowing the rituals is a rediculousness


    simply one of the myriad breaks in continuity franks makes in his crafting of a work
    which begs us to fill in the blanks
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby inhuien » 11 May 2014 04:26

    Freakzilla wrote:I'm currently rereading HoD and something had been bugging me since the one of the first few chapters:

    Waff, the Tleilaxu Master of Masters says, "And the ghola on Gammu, this ghola at this time, was worth all of the waiting."

    Then, about a third of the way into the book the Tleixaxu attach the Bene Gesserit keep on Gammu with the obvious intention of killing Duncan.

    WTF? What am I missing here? :?

    This point's been buggin me since you made it freak and I've not been able to let it be, but in absence of anything to say I haven't.

    That may have changed though, When thinking of the Bene T I find it useful to focus of the whole of their History and Psychology (as much as can be deduced) rather than the event its self. So here's me 2pee.

    One, the BT were known from the time of Messiah to leave the condemned a route of escape, If the attack on the Gammu Keep was an example of this then it worked.
    Two, The BT were not a perfect collective in that there were individuals and packs working towards their own ends, ala inconsistencies in there actions as seen from the outside.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2014 18:27

    inhuien wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I'm currently rereading HoD and something had been bugging me since the one of the first few chapters:

    Waff, the Tleilaxu Master of Masters says, "And the ghola on Gammu, this ghola at this time, was worth all of the waiting."

    Then, about a third of the way into the book the Tleixaxu attach the Bene Gesserit keep on Gammu with the obvious intention of killing Duncan.

    WTF? What am I missing here? :?

    This point's been buggin me since you made it freak and I've not been able to let it be, but in absence of anything to say I haven't.

    That may have changed though, When thinking of the Bene T I find it useful to focus of the whole of their History and Psychology (as much as can be deduced) rather than the event its self. So here's me 2pee.

    One, the BT were known from the time of Messiah to leave the condemned a route of escape, If the attack on the Gammu Keep was an example of this then it worked.


    There was a Face Dancer in the courtyard of the Gammu BG Keep blazing at the Idaho ghola with a lasgun... I think the BT were all in on this hand.

    Two, The BT were not a perfect collective in that there were individuals and packs working towards their own ends, ala inconsistencies in there actions as seen from the outside.


    I don't buy this at all. The BT have obviously been planning this for millenia. Also, the Khel, a small group of Masters seem in control of everything... except to their surprize the New Face Dancers.

    I've avoided wanting to say this but this book seems to be the most "rushed" in the series.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby inhuien » 12 May 2014 03:30

    Freakzilla wrote:There was a Face Dancer in the courtyard of the Gammu BG Keep blazing at the Idaho ghola with a lasgun... I think the BT were all in on this hand.

    hmm, a lone Face Dancer against a full Reverend Mother and a Ghola who's full capabilities were known only by the Tleixaxu themselves. :)
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 May 2014 14:41

    inhuien wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:There was a Face Dancer in the courtyard of the Gammu BG Keep blazing at the Idaho ghola with a lasgun... I think the BT were all in on this hand.

    hmm, a lone Face Dancer against a full Reverend Mother and a Ghola who's full capabilities were known only by the Tleixaxu themselves. :)


    That was just one Teg let get through while he dealt with the main assault, the assault forced Teg, Lucilla and Duncan out of the keep and put them on the run.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby inhuien » 13 May 2014 14:16

    Freakzilla wrote:
    inhuien wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:There was a Face Dancer in the courtyard of the Gammu BG Keep blazing at the Idaho ghola with a lasgun... I think the BT were all in on this hand.

    hmm, a lone Face Dancer against a full Reverend Mother and a Ghola who's full capabilities were known only by the Tleixaxu themselves. :)


    That was just one Teg let get through while he dealt with the main assault, the assault forced Teg, Lucilla and Duncan out of the keep and put them on the run.

    Which culminated in the destruction of their culture.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby distrans » 13 May 2014 17:57

    was there ever a hint of them bringing a twisted reverend mother to market?

    the bene gesserit survival was extremely unlikely
    the tleilaxu were playing a good hand
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Smiley » 27 Nov 2014 14:45

    could be wrong, but I thought it was the lost BT from the scattering. The HMs wanted the ghola, and I thought they were ultimately the ones behind that attack.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Nov 2014 15:42

    distrans wrote:was there ever a hint of them bringing a twisted reverend mother to market?

    the bene gesserit survival was extremely unlikely
    the tleilaxu were playing a good hand


    How would you "twist" a RM?
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Sleels » 16 Dec 2014 23:49

    Smiley wrote:could be wrong, but I thought it was the lost BT from the scattering. The HMs wanted the ghola, and I thought they were ultimately the ones behind that attack.


    This is what I thought as well. I guess it never specifically says but considering the Honored Matres had BT with them I always assumed it was them. If I remember correctly Schwangyu's last act was to write the warning "Whores" for her sisters
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Dec 2014 08:32

    Sleels wrote:
    Smiley wrote:could be wrong, but I thought it was the lost BT from the scattering. The HMs wanted the ghola, and I thought they were ultimately the ones behind that attack.


    This is what I thought as well. I guess it never specifically says but considering the Honored Matres had BT with them I always assumed it was them. If I remember correctly Schwangyu's last act was to write the warning "Whores" for her sisters


    It was. However, I never got the impression that the BT were returning in force from The Scattering. As far as we know, all the returned BT did was arm the Tleilaxu with sexual knowledge for the Idaho ghola.
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Sleels » 21 Dec 2014 06:30

    True. I guess it's possible he left it vague on purpose, or perhaps the book is rushed as you've suggested. I enjoyed Heretics a lot and I'm currently re-reading it so maybe I'm biased, but I'm leaning towards the former.

    It makes sense to me that some of the BT that went out into the scattering were able avoid being enslaved by the Honored Matre's bonding techniques, and returned the information untainted to the core BT. While the BT ensared by the "Whores" returned and fought for the HM. :geek:

    ....Although as I'm looking for a quote to support this theory, I found:

    "Time to shift his attention to Gammu, Taraza thought. Keep him off balance. She said "Even when you subvert one of us, as you did with Schwangyu on Gammu, you learn nothing of value!"

    Waff flared: "She thought to. . . to hire us like a band of assassins! We only taught her a lesson!"



    So it appears the Core BT was involved in someway :whistle:
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    Re: Heretics of Dune

    Postby Smiley » 21 Dec 2014 06:55

    Sleels wrote:True. I guess it's possible he left it vague on purpose, or perhaps the book is rushed as you've suggested. I enjoyed Heretics a lot and I'm currently re-reading it so maybe I'm biased, but I'm leaning towards the former.

    It makes sense to me that some of the BT that went out into the scattering were able avoid being enslaved by the Honored Matre's bonding techniques, and returned the information untainted to the core BT. While the BT ensared by the "Whores" returned and fought for the HM. :geek:

    ....Although as I'm looking for a quote to support this theory, I found:

    "Time to shift his attention to Gammu, Taraza thought. Keep him off balance. She said "Even when you subvert one of us, as you did with Schwangyu on Gammu, you learn nothing of value!"

    Waff flared: "She thought to. . . to hire us like a band of assassins! We only taught her a lesson!"



    So it appears the Core BT was involved in someway :whistle:


    Ahhh. I stand corrected. Bit thrown off by the warning schwangyu left behind. the whole thing may be more clear on the next reread.
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