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    A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 03 Jul 2014 09:34

    But it stated "all the men died trying to awaken the male OM".
    What is the logical reason?
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2014 11:43

    Maybe because they didn't have a lifetime of Bene Gesserit training. We don't really know, though. All we know is that they died trying.

    If there HAD been some male who had succeeded, the universe would have been noticeably shaken... like it was when Paul did it.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Naïve mind » 03 Jul 2014 12:04

    DragEgusku wrote:Womens could discover/invent techniques workout that eases access to the OM, but the men were so stupid that they have not ever done this? Hard to believe.


    Well, maybe the men who are smart enough to figure this out are not stupid enough to take the water of life, seeing that it's a lethal poison, and presumably hard to find outside Arrakis.

    The Bene Gesserit stumbled upon the ritual, presumably by accident(*) And few people outside the Bene Gesserit seem to have a notion about what a Reverend Mother really is. Thufir has an idea, but not the fullness of it. It's even unclear if Jessica knows, until she's confronted with the agony on Arrakis.

    Suppose the Male(**) Gesserit, not yet Reverend Fathers, have skills comparable to those of the Bene Gesserit, but not Other Memory? How would they know what it is? How would they know that they want it? And how would they figure out how to duplicate the ritual?

    (*) It is debatable whether this is the same event that is mentioned in the appendices about Rossak, as it's unlikely that the Water of Life would be available there.
    (**) Pronounced mah-lay
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 03 Jul 2014 14:47

    DragEgusku wrote:
    lotek wrote:
    In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.


    Why does it bother you so much?


    Because it's simply illogical and I dislike this?


    Dune is fiction. It's logical within the parameters Herbert established. I'll explain this further in response to your next comment.

    DragEgusku wrote:
    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Still, in the context of Frank Herbert's Dune universe, I'm more inclined to believe that the women (those who are bred and trained to be BG, of course) are better able to access OM than the majority of the men of Dune. Most of the guys, especially the Mentats, get easily distracted by a multitude of manly problems, and thus are unable to see beyond the confines of their reality. Paul on the other hand, thanks to his genetic makeup, special BG training, and oracular dreams, was the only guy in the original Dune book to better perceive the other reality like the BG. Leto II could do it thanks to being Paul's son and especially due to Chani's Spice overdose, which enabled him to remember past memories like Alia. It just takes a special combination of genetics, circumstances, and luck to produce men who can access OM. The only other means of BG training that you can give to men without genetic predisposition is the Weirding Way and perhaps the Voice, but that's it.


    The same could be said about women, that they are distracted with womanly problems. And the Mentats should be capable of seeing beyond the confines of their reality. After all, their training is "the endless search".
    In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.


    You misunderstood me, DragEgusbo. My phrase for "manly problems" was my way of saying that most of the men just didn't have that mystical instinct which the BG have. Mentats indeed do perceive things more acutely than most, but they do so only within the confines of logic, and BG's mysticism lies beyond their logical understanding. And as some of as have been trying to tell you before as clearly as we could, in order for men to access OM, they have to be specially bred and trained by BG to be KH. The men of Dune just can't access OM without those qualifications. They can be trained with the Voice and the Weirding Way, but they don't have the biological preparations for OM. Even if you find this illogical, keep in mind that in any work of work of fiction, especially where the science is made up and nonexistent, it follows its own logic. Herbert established the rules Dune, and by being consistent with his own established rules, he is therefore logical. The logic in the work of science-fiction and fantasy and the logic of real life are two different things.

    As i said before, if you are not satisfied with BG being the only ones with OM, then write some fan fiction about how a male equivalent of the BG would be able to drink Water of Life and access OM without being KH, and without dying. I would read it. There's nothing stopping you from exploring Frank Herbert's universe in your own unique way.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2014 18:00

    Naïve mind wrote:
    DragEgusku wrote:Womens could discover/invent techniques workout that eases access to the OM, but the men were so stupid that they have not ever done this? Hard to believe.


    Well, maybe the men who are smart enough to figure this out are not stupid enough to take the water of life, seeing that it's a lethal poison, and presumably hard to find outside Arrakis.


    The Bene Gesserit didn't use the Water of Life, except for Jessica, Paul and Alia. Before that they used the Rossak Poison or other "Illuminating Poisons", afterwards they used Spice Essence.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby D Pope » 03 Jul 2014 23:01

    Freakzilla wrote:The Bene Gesserit didn't use the Water of Life, except for Jessica, Paul and Alia.


    I know it's a little off topic- do you think the Fremen RMs weren't BG? I never thought about this.

    Freakzilla wrote: Before that they used the Rossak Poison or other "Illuminating Poisons", afterwards they used Spice Essence.


    Yup, by GEoD the Spice was it! No mention of any other possibilities when Leto II was rationing his hoard.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby D Pope » 03 Jul 2014 23:30

    DragEgusku wrote:For me, one aspect of Herbert's books was disturbing.
    Why only women were able to access the OM (although only the female line),
    and men could not access the male genetic lines?


    I don't know mate. I can't even begin to speculate on how one could devise a
    breeding program for the necessary traits because He doesn't tell us what
    genetic traits define a KH. Oh sure, we get generalities like his early mentat
    training and 'He who can be many places at once' but it must've been a well
    defined constellation of attributes that gave the BG such a specific schedule.
    Ninety generations of breeding and Paul should've been the mother of the KH.
    If you look back at five generations you're looking at a lot of people.

    Kudos for thinking of this (these) question(s). I know it's a shitty attempt at
    offering relief but understand that, by design, Frank Herbert edited his stories
    with an eye toward allowing the reader to fill in a lot of the detail. Perhaps he
    felt explaining why men didn't do well with the agony fell outside the story.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 04 Jul 2014 03:29

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:
    DragEgusku wrote:
    lotek wrote:
    In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.


    Why does it bother you so much?


    Because it's simply illogical and I dislike this?


    Dune is fiction. It's logical within the parameters Herbert established. I'll explain this further in response to your next comment.

    DragEgusku wrote:
    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Still, in the context of Frank Herbert's Dune universe, I'm more inclined to believe that the women (those who are bred and trained to be BG, of course) are better able to access OM than the majority of the men of Dune. Most of the guys, especially the Mentats, get easily distracted by a multitude of manly problems, and thus are unable to see beyond the confines of their reality. Paul on the other hand, thanks to his genetic makeup, special BG training, and oracular dreams, was the only guy in the original Dune book to better perceive the other reality like the BG. Leto II could do it thanks to being Paul's son and especially due to Chani's Spice overdose, which enabled him to remember past memories like Alia. It just takes a special combination of genetics, circumstances, and luck to produce men who can access OM. The only other means of BG training that you can give to men without genetic predisposition is the Weirding Way and perhaps the Voice, but that's it.


    The same could be said about women, that they are distracted with womanly problems. And the Mentats should be capable of seeing beyond the confines of their reality. After all, their training is "the endless search".
    In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.


    You misunderstood me, DragEgusbo. My phrase for "manly problems" was my way of saying that most of the men just didn't have that mystical instinct which the BG have. Mentats indeed do perceive things more acutely than most, but they do so only within the confines of logic, and BG's mysticism lies beyond their logical understanding. And as some of as have been trying to tell you before as clearly as we could, in order for men to access OM, they have to be specially bred and trained by BG to be KH. The men of Dune just can't access OM without those qualifications. They can be trained with the Voice and the Weirding Way, but they don't have the biological preparations for OM. Even if you find this illogical, keep in mind that in any work of work of fiction, especially where the science is made up and nonexistent, it follows its own logic. Herbert established the rules Dune, and by being consistent with his own established rules, he is therefore logical. The logic in the work of science-fiction and fantasy and the logic of real life are two different things.

    As i said before, if you are not satisfied with BG being the only ones with OM, then write some fan fiction about how a male equivalent of the BG would be able to drink Water of Life and access OM without being KH, and without dying. I would read it. There's nothing stopping you from exploring Frank Herbert's universe in your own unique way.


    Well, if it comes down to a mystical instinct, I guess the whole discussion was futile. It is impossible to argue on the mystical basis.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 04 Jul 2014 04:44

    DragEgusku wrote:But it stated "all the men died trying to awaken the male OM".
    What is the logical reason?


    The reason is they can't do it, because they can't change the drug so the process won't kill them.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 04 Jul 2014 05:03

    D Pope wrote:I know it's a little off topic- do you think the Fremen RMs weren't BG? I never thought about this.


    I'm pretty sure there's a quote on this, I think when Jessica first realizes the Missionaria has left failsafes for stranded BG, which worked so well with the Fremen "that they named their priests after reverend mothers". And we all know how true that was. The BG has a term, wild Reverend Mothers, to designate any woman who changed the drug without formal training from them.

    As for being BG or not, I remember when Jessica trains Farad'n, and that when the Bashar walks in on the very end of the initiation , it reads something like "he wasn' a Corrino anymore, he was now BG."
    I think like all things Dune, it's not a clear cut, but I'd be inclined to think that you do not become them but the changes you go through
    So then it's down to do you believe thinking like a group makes you a part of that group or not, I guess.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jul 2014 08:53

    lotek wrote:
    D Pope wrote:I know it's a little off topic- do you think the Fremen RMs weren't BG? I never thought about this.


    I'm pretty sure there's a quote on this, I think when Jessica first realizes the Missionaria has left failsafes for stranded BG, which worked so well with the Fremen "that they named their priests after reverend mothers". And we all know how true that was. The BG has a term, wild Reverend Mothers, to designate any woman who changed the drug without formal training from them.

    As for being BG or not, I remember when Jessica trains Farad'n, and that when the Bashar walks in on the very end of the initiation , it reads something like "he wasn' a Corrino anymore, he was now BG."
    I think like all things Dune, it's not a clear cut, but I'd be inclined to think that you do not become them but the changes you go through
    So then it's down to do you believe thinking like a group makes you a part of that group or not, I guess.


    I don't think the Fremen RMs shared the same goals as the BG and I don't think the BG themselves would consider them part of their order. They didn't have prana-bindu training, Voice, etc.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 04 Jul 2014 10:14

    Not necessarily the same goals, but they both managed to change poison within so they must have some common ground somewhere.

    But I see that I kinda mixed up training and philosophy here, thanks for clearing that up.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jul 2014 10:22

    Yes, they do have some similar abilities but that's about as far as it goes. The BG are at it's core a political organization while the Fremen RMs are more like a high priestess.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby D Pope » 04 Jul 2014 10:58

    That pretty much sums up what I'd thought except to
    add that they probably began BG. Hard to think that
    they would have stumbled into changing the WoL.
    Does anyone remember where the young Jewish girl
    from HoD got her initial training?

    Almost related story;
    I saw a thing on Nat'l Geo about the beer like stuff
    some Amazon tribe makes. They start with impressively
    poisonous tree roots, dry them in the sun for a long
    while, soak them in a half sunk canoe for a longer while,
    pound them into mush, and then have the young girls
    chew the mush before spitting it into a big pot that then
    gets buried for a week or two while it ferments. I'm sure
    I'm leaving out some critical steps but I can't help but
    wonder how they ever happened upon this recipe.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jul 2014 11:18

    D Pope wrote:That pretty much sums up what I'd thought except to
    add that they probably began BG.


    They were obviously heavily influenced by the BG Missionaria Protectiva.

    Hard to think that
    they would have stumbled into changing the WoL.


    I was incorrect earlier, it was the Fremen who discovered the Rossak poison. So it's not a stretch to imagine someone taking the WoL. I wonder who the first crazy MF who tried drowning a sandworm and drinking it's death bile was.


    Does anyone remember where the young Jewish girl
    from HoD got her initial training?


    I don't think she (Rebecca) had any special training. Hebrew school?

    Almost related story;
    I saw a thing on Nat'l Geo about the beer like stuff
    some Amazon tribe makes. They start with impressively
    poisonous tree roots, dry them in the sun for a long
    while, soak them in a half sunk canoe for a longer while,
    pound them into mush, and then have the young girls
    chew the mush before spitting it into a big pot that then
    gets buried for a week or two while it ferments. I'm sure
    I'm leaving out some critical steps but I can't help but
    wonder how they ever happened upon this recipe.


    Makes the drowned worm bile story a little more plausible, huh? :wink:
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby D Pope » 04 Jul 2014 11:27

    DragEgusku wrote:Well, if it comes down to a mystical instinct, I guess the whole discussion was futile. It is impossible to argue on the mystical basis.

    I'm sorry you're not getting the answers you want but I don't think the discussion is futile. I've enjoyed thinking about your ideas and turning what I think I know about the BG sideways & upside down to make them fit. You've had an original idea and you've presented it well, I'm serious when I say thank you.
    My own conclusion- women can do things men can't, like having babies. It's vital to the story that it works this way.

    If you're interested, there are other discussions that have ended in frustration.
    stillsuits
    transporting laza tigers
    and one of my favorites;
    why didn't the BG in GEoD use the 'other poisons' and reduce dependency on melange
    There are more, Duncan may be the biggest typo of them all, just know that you're not alone in aggravation.
    Last edited by D Pope on 04 Jul 2014 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby D Pope » 04 Jul 2014 11:39

    Freakzilla wrote:
    D Pope wrote:That pretty much sums up what I'd thought except to
    add that they probably began BG.


    They were obviously heavily influenced by the BG Missionaria Protectiva.

    Agreed, I'd go so far as to say trained. You know, keep the Word alive. Then later,
    in Pauls time, BG acolytes would find it quaint and charming that 'they even call
    their High Priestesses Reverend Mothers.'
    ...Or maybe I've got it backwards and the BG owe the whole OM thing to the Abdul
    Alhazred of Sayyadina. That actually makes a lot of sense, bat shit crazy bored
    "friend of God" saying, "Hey! Lets drown a worm and see what happens..."
    Or, "I'm gonna sit here till I figure out how to move just one muscle on my little finger."

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Hard to think that
    they would have stumbled into changing the WoL.


    I was incorrect earlier, it was the Fremen who discovered the Rossak poison. So it's not a stretch to imagine someone taking the WoL. I wonder who the first crazy MF who tried drowning a sandworm and drinking it's death bile was.

    My thoughts exactly.


    Freakzilla wrote:
    Does anyone remember where the young Jewish girl
    from HoD got her initial training?


    I don't think she (Rebecca) had any special training. Hebrew school?

    Hey wait a tic, wasn't she a wild RM? and saved the Lampadas OM?

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Almost related story;
    I saw a thing on Nat'l Geo about the beer like stuff
    some Amazon tribe makes. They start with impressively
    poisonous tree roots, dry them in the sun for a long
    while, soak them in a half sunk canoe for a longer while,
    pound them into mush, and then have the young girls
    chew the mush before spitting it into a big pot that then
    gets buried for a week or two while it ferments. I'm sure
    I'm leaving out some critical steps but I can't help but
    wonder how they ever happened upon this recipe.


    Makes the drowned worm bile story a little more plausible, huh? :wink:

    Yeah, crazy stuff! How many people died perfecting that formulae?
    I also find it interesting that it's not the boys doing the chewing,
    perhaps it's just a sexist thing- men hunt! women gather! Don't know.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby inhuien » 04 Jul 2014 14:02

    The Bene Gesserit and their access to OM was a process of evolution, both of the gene lines and practices. So I feel that divergent outcomes are possible, Bene Gesserit RMs and wild RMs would no doubt have common sources.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 04 Jul 2014 15:15

    D Pope wrote:That pretty much sums up what I'd thought except to
    add that they probably began BG. Hard to think that
    they would have stumbled into changing the WoL.
    Does anyone remember where the young Jewish girl
    from HoD got her initial training?

    Almost related story;
    I saw a thing on Nat'l Geo about the beer like stuff
    some Amazon tribe makes. They start with impressively
    poisonous tree roots, dry them in the sun for a long
    while, soak them in a half sunk canoe for a longer while,
    pound them into mush, and then have the young girls
    chew the mush before spitting it into a big pot that then
    gets buried for a week or two while it ferments. I'm sure
    I'm leaving out some critical steps but I can't help but
    wonder how they ever happened upon this recipe.


    Man, I've always wondered that about even simpler stuff. Take bread, an almost universal staple food. How did people come up with that? Or cooking with fire? "Hey, we have fire! It gives us light and warmth, but it destroys anything it touches. Let's put our last mammoth steak on and see what happens!"

    :)
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Robspierre » 04 Jul 2014 18:28

    Going through the agony is in many ways a "birth" for the woman. Women therefore are genetically and culturally predisposed to handle the agony as opposed to men. The men without the predisposition fall into madness and get overwhelmed, the women do not.

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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Robspierre » 06 Jul 2014 20:23

    Also, Frank combined two ideas to create the BG. The first were his Irish aunts, women played a large role in Frank's life and you must keep this in mind when you evalaute women in his writing. The other idea was the Jesuit religious order. Because his aunts were extremely crafty and stroong willed, all traits we see in the BG, combine those attitudes, strength, and self- assurance with the organization of a religious order you have the Bene Gesserit.

    Something else to consider, all the other institutions in the Dune Universe are male dominated. The Guild, the Landsraad, the Emperium, by being female dominant, the Bene Gesserit stand outside the male dominance of the Imperium and exploit those attitudes, BG as breeders etc.


    Rob

    Edited to add: If anything, the Guild would be the closest equivilent of a male organization to the BG, they were doing behind the scenes shit, mostly focusing on spice, but it was there.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 07 Jul 2014 05:14

    The Jewish girl was called Rebecca, she was the ward of the crazy relentless Rabbi. I don't remember how she became a wild Reverend Mother though, but she brings the Lampadas horde.

    (had to google the number : 7,622,014 shared minds, according to http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Rebecca )

    But again, we have wild RM but never ever are any male counterparts mentionned. And I'll be damned if there could be such a thing happening without the BG knowing about it, or even the Guild (since prophets will know when there is a disturbance in the For.. I mean their vision, they can't see the other prophet but they can see where he's been)

    Do you need OM to see the future?

    Also, as Rob just said, the Imperium being a male dominated feudal society, I've always seen the Bene Girls (now why would I think of this guy now Image ) as a balancing act.
    Sure, Paul and Leto II do stuff, Duncan is cool and Miles Teg is awesome, but Odrade rules. And she surfs.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 05 Aug 2014 07:20

    I feel I should clarify why this bothers me. I quote again:

    Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an
    ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
    himself where the taking force dwells
    , but it's almost impossible for him to see
    into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a
    woman, the situation is reversed."
    Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.
    "Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.
    She could only nod.
    "These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
    into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
    to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be.' But when you look inward and
    confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
    that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
    takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
    be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
    "And you, my son," Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"
    "I'm at the fulcrum," he said. "I cannot give without taking and I cannot
    take without . . . "


    This makes me think that there should be a symmetry: female with female OM <-> male with male OM. The quote clearly states that access of the male OM should be easy for a male.
    Is not this a contradiction with the statement that only women can have OM?
    Given that people are naturally curious and inventive, I find hard to believe that mens couldn't develop techniques for accessing OM. Maybe some men have discovered techniques for accessing OM without having the need of the water of life. In other words, the same can be achieved in different ways. Maybe they do not even need a drug for that.
    Therefore I think that there should be men with the male OM.
    DragEgusku
     
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Serkanner » 05 Aug 2014 09:39

    No. Read the bolded sentence again. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Serkanner
     
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    Postby DragEgusku » 05 Aug 2014 10:30

    And what does it mean, in your opinion? I'm really curious, as I'm not a native English speaker.
    DragEgusku
     
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