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    A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

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    Re:

    Postby Serkanner » 05 Aug 2014 13:02

    DragEgusku wrote:And what does it mean, in your opinion? I'm really curious, as I'm not a native English speaker.


    It is easy for the man to face ( look at ) the place where the OM is. It doesn't say it can access the OM. Those are two different things.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby D Pope » 05 Aug 2014 19:16

    DragEgusku wrote:Maybe some men have discovered techniques for accessing OM
    without having the need of the water of life.

    In other words, the same can be achieved in different ways.

    Maybe they do not even need a drug for that.

    Therefore I think that there should be men with the male OM.


    If you're writing an inter-quell, yeah! That should mesh seamlessly with
    water-worms, magic BG acolytes, and sword masters who've no clue how
    to lead a few troops.

    It does not jibe so well with Dune.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Aug 2014 06:55

    The Water of Life wasn't specifically needed but it had to be some kind of "illuminating poison".
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    Re: Re:

    Postby DragEgusku » 06 Aug 2014 06:56

    Serkanner wrote:
    DragEgusku wrote:And what does it mean, in your opinion? I'm really curious, as I'm not a native English speaker.


    It is easy for the man to face ( look at ) the place where the OM is. It doesn't say it can access the OM. Those are two different things.


    I find it a rather convenient interpretation. Paul talks about men and women as mirror images: "For the
    woman, the situation is reversed." I understand the phrase as follows:

    A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
    himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see
    into the giving force without changing into something other than man.
    A woman finds little difficulty facing that place within
    herself where the giving force dwells, but it's almost impossible for her to see
    into the taking force without changing into something other than woman.


    Mine bolded/added.
    In this context, the words "to look at" and "access to" seems interchangeable. Of course, it could be only an impression.
    But if only females can have OM, then this trait should be sex-linked (100% female). This would explain why there are no males with OM (0% cases), but it contradict the existence of Paul and Leto, because it contradicts the assumption that this is a sex-linked trait. I already said it.
    Simply put, there can be no male KH, because it cannot have OM (if it's a sex-linked trait). Perhaps it would be simpler and clearer if the KH were a woman. But Frank chose something else, and I try to understand why.
    If this is not related to sex, then there should be mens with OM. But Frank did not write anything about it. It is a mystery, in this case: logically they should exist, but they are not mentioned anywhere. And this aroused my curiosity.

    D Pope wrote:
    DragEgusku wrote:Maybe some men have discovered techniques for accessing OM
    without having the need of the water of life.

    In other words, the same can be achieved in different ways.

    Maybe they do not even need a drug for that.

    Therefore I think that there should be men with the male OM.


    If you're writing an inter-quell, yeah! That should mesh seamlessly with
    water-worms, magic BG acolytes, and sword masters who've no clue how
    to lead a few troops.

    It does not jibe so well with Dune.


    I'm not writing anything. I only have some ideas. I read some of the prequels/sequels (those that have been translated into Romanian). One word describes these best: boring. They have almost nothing in common with the original books. If I would write in that style, I would say that mens can have OM just by praying to the gods of the depths. They just pray and receive "the access codes" to their OM.
    "Join us and you will be blessed by the gods and you can unlock your OM! What agony, what spice, what training? Those are just for losers!"
    I'm just kidding, if you have not you realized it yet.

    More seriously, what I meant to say is that if there are men with OM, they could discover different methods of access. The Agony is not the only method, nor the water of life. Duncan and Miles are two examples. They have accessed their past lives without the Agony. Everything I do is to extend this to other possible cases.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Aug 2014 07:31

    EVERYONE has Other Memory but it is subconscious.

    Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers can access it on a conscious level yet avoid the male memories for fear of possession.

    Males typically cannot survive the process of accessing it.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 06 Aug 2014 08:17

    I guess it's very important to some people to fight for men's rights, since well we've been oppressed by women for so long.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 08 Aug 2014 04:24

    Freakzilla wrote:EVERYONE has Other Memory but it is subconscious.

    Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers can access it on a conscious level yet avoid the male memories for fear of possession.

    Males typically cannot survive the process of accessing it.


    I know that, in fact it's one of the reasons why I believe there are mens with OM. Mens do not survive the poison, but there may be other ways to access the (male) other memories.

    lotek wrote:I guess it's very important to some people to fight for men's rights, since well we've been oppressed by women for so long.


    I like your sarcasm, but it is misdirected. I do not present this idea to defend the "rights of mens", but because of logical and philosophical reasons. Logic - they should be. Philosophically - the symmetry is "beautiful". Another reason: Frank's universe is more complex with this extra layer. I see the Imperium as a continuum of possibilities. Frank presented the most important/visible. But that does not mean that there can be no hidden layers.
    Suppose they exist. I think they would be very unconventional. They reject the spice because they could be controlled by it and through it, and therefore they see the spice addiction as something harmful. And whatever is their method of access to the OM, it does not involve a drug.
    They have a physical and mental self-control similar to BG and they can extend their lifespan just by using this self-control, nothing else. Similarly, controlling their own immune system and metabolism, they are practically immune to all diseases.
    Their goals? Maybe totally different from the goals of other organizations. They are more observers and less actors. That does not mean they do not manipulate, but they do it in more subtle ways. They are oriented toward self-improvement and they are not too much interested in the evolution of mankind, but their own evolution.
    That's my idea. Now, you can laugh at me.
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    Postby lotek » 08 Aug 2014 05:24

    DragEgusku wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:EVERYONE has Other Memory but it is subconscious.

    Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers can access it on a conscious level yet avoid the male memories for fear of possession.

    Males typically cannot survive the process of accessing it.


    I know that, in fact it's one of the reasons why I believe there are mens with OM. Mens do not survive the poison, but there may be other ways to access the (male) other memories.


    This is the realm of ifs and buts.


    DragEgusku wrote:
    lotek wrote:I guess it's very important to some people to fight for men's rights, since well we've been oppressed by women for so long.


    I like your sarcasm, but it is misdirected. I do not present this idea to defend the "rights of mens", but because of logical and philosophical reasons. Logic - they should be. Philosophically - the symmetry is "beautiful". Another reason: Frank's universe is more complex with this extra layer. I see the Imperium as a continuum of possibilities. Frank presented the most important/visible. But that does not mean that there can be no hidden layers.
    Suppose they exist. I think they would be very unconventional. They reject the spice because they could be controlled by it and through it, and therefore they see the spice addiction as something harmful. And whatever is their method of access to the OM, it does not involve a drug.
    They have a physical and mental self-control similar to BG and they can extend their lifespan just by using this self-control, nothing else. Similarly, controlling their own immune system and metabolism, they are practically immune to all diseases.
    Their goals? Maybe totally different from the goals of other organizations. They are more observers and less actors. That does not mean they do not manipulate, but they do it in more subtle ways. They are oriented toward self-improvement and they are not too much interested in the evolution of mankind, but their own evolution.
    That's my idea. Now, you can laugh at me.


    I'm not laughing, I'm perplexed.
    And that organization exists, it's called the Bene Tleilax, they have managed to show them women that they are not superheroes.
    If you want to know what male domination means for Frank, look no further.

    As for symmetry, I leave you with the words of Paul.

    There is in all things a pattern that is part of our universe. It has symmetry,
    elegance, and grace -- those qualities you find always in that which the true
    artist captures. You can find it in the turning of the seasons, in the way sand
    trails along a ridge, in the branch clusters of the creosote bush or the
    pattern of its leaves. We try to copy these patterns in our lives and our
    society, seeking the rhythms, the dances, the forms that comfort. Yet, it is
    possible to see peril in the finding of ultimate perfection. It is clear that
    the ultimate pattern contains its own fixity. In such perfection, all things
    move toward death.


    -from "The Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2014 05:45

    Freakzilla wrote:EVERYONE has Other Memory but it is subconscious.

    Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers can access it on a conscious level yet avoid the male memories for fear of possession.

    Males typically cannot survive the process of accessing it.


    This is what I tried to get across.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 09 Aug 2014 14:38

    DragEgusku wrote:This makes me think that there should be a symmetry: female with female OM <-> male with male OM.

    While we're having ideas and speaking them, I believe there should be a garnish-tension for "parsley," denoting the opposite of the leafy herb. Because symmetry. (And no, even though we speak in daily discourse of "anti-parsley," that does not count. That's something else entirely.)
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2014 08:16

    Cpt. Aramsham wrote:
    DragEgusku wrote:This makes me think that there should be a symmetry: female with female OM <-> male with male OM.

    While we're having ideas and speaking them, I believe there should be a garnish-tension for "parsley," denoting the opposite of the leafy herb. Because symmetry. (And no, even though we speak in daily discourse of "anti-parsley," that does not count. That's something else entirely.)



    LOL, nice to see you again, Captain. :lol:
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    Re:

    Postby DragEgusku » 11 Aug 2014 05:24

    lotek wrote:
    DragEgusku wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:EVERYONE has Other Memory but it is subconscious.

    Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers can access it on a conscious level yet avoid the male memories for fear of possession.

    Males typically cannot survive the process of accessing it.


    I know that, in fact it's one of the reasons why I believe there are mens with OM. Mens do not survive the poison, but there may be other ways to access the (male) other memories.


    This is the realm of ifs and buts.


    DragEgusku wrote:
    lotek wrote:I guess it's very important to some people to fight for men's rights, since well we've been oppressed by women for so long.


    I like your sarcasm, but it is misdirected. I do not present this idea to defend the "rights of mens", but because of logical and philosophical reasons. Logic - they should be. Philosophically - the symmetry is "beautiful". Another reason: Frank's universe is more complex with this extra layer. I see the Imperium as a continuum of possibilities. Frank presented the most important/visible. But that does not mean that there can be no hidden layers.
    Suppose they exist. I think they would be very unconventional. They reject the spice because they could be controlled by it and through it, and therefore they see the spice addiction as something harmful. And whatever is their method of access to the OM, it does not involve a drug.
    They have a physical and mental self-control similar to BG and they can extend their lifespan just by using this self-control, nothing else. Similarly, controlling their own immune system and metabolism, they are practically immune to all diseases.
    Their goals? Maybe totally different from the goals of other organizations. They are more observers and less actors. That does not mean they do not manipulate, but they do it in more subtle ways. They are oriented toward self-improvement and they are not too much interested in the evolution of mankind, but their own evolution.
    That's my idea. Now, you can laugh at me.


    I'm not laughing, I'm perplexed.
    And that organization exists, it's called the Bene Tleilax, they have managed to show them women that they are not superheroes.
    If you want to know what male domination means for Frank, look no further.

    As for symmetry, I leave you with the words of Paul.

    There is in all things a pattern that is part of our universe. It has symmetry,
    elegance, and grace -- those qualities you find always in that which the true
    artist captures. You can find it in the turning of the seasons, in the way sand
    trails along a ridge, in the branch clusters of the creosote bush or the
    pattern of its leaves. We try to copy these patterns in our lives and our
    society, seeking the rhythms, the dances, the forms that comfort. Yet, it is
    possible to see peril in the finding of ultimate perfection. It is clear that
    the ultimate pattern contains its own fixity. In such perfection, all things
    move toward death.


    -from "The Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan


    Well, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not talking about a static and perfect symmetry, but about a fluid and dynamic symmetry. The Organization of which I speak is not identical or similar to Tleilaxu. Why? Because of many reasons:

    - Tleilaxu are stupid. I know, that was an illusion created and maintained by them, but this illusion was maintained for so long that it became a reality. Think about Waff and Scytale's behavior, both Masters. They seem to behave childishly and they don't have a very good self control.

    - Tleilaxu are religious. Religious thinking is flawed from the start, because it starts from unverified/unverifiable premises. This means that they can only think within these premises, and that in itself means self-limiting.

    - They want to dominate the mankind.

    - Finally, they don't have ancestral OM.

    No, the organization is not the same as Tleilaxu. Developing the idea, I believe that this organization is composed of Mentats. A small group of Big Mentats. Makes sense to me. The Mentats could find a way to access the OM, in one way or another. In addition, I felt that the Mentats have been neglected.
    Those Mentats of I'm speaking have a dynamic free thinking, and a logical system which by itself almost guarantees "godhood".

    That's not all, I still work on my idea.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 12 Aug 2014 06:14

    I thought of a name for this organization. How does Enaotics sound? Singular form: Enaotic, plural form: Enaotics.
    About this name, I heard it in a strange dream I had a few years ago. All I remember is a scenery from a city from my country and a sentence: "an enaotic is..."
    The name remained engraved in my memory and now I'm thinking to use it, because it seem to be cool and exotic.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 12 Aug 2014 09:35

    I still don't understand why you want Dune to be so much like the rest when its lessons are so unique.
    Or why you're insisting so much to have Foundation style organizations.

    And the BT are not stupid, they wanted people to believe it.
    How many times do we need to say that everyone has OM ?

    And I don't feel Mentats have been neglected, come on now.


    DragEgusku wrote:I thought of a name for this organization. How does Enaotics sound? Singular form: Enaotic, plural form: Enaotics.
    About this name, I heard it in a strange dream I had a few years ago. All I remember is a scenery from a city from my country and a sentence: "an enaotic is..."
    The name remained engraved in my memory and now I'm thinking to use it, because it seem to be cool and exotic.


    I think you should talk to the HLP.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 12 Aug 2014 14:33

    Who/what is HLP?
    My idea was more Pandora style. But I realize that it makes no sense to continue, so I will stop.
    The topic can be closed/deleted.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Aug 2014 16:55

    DragEgusku wrote:The topic can be closed/deleted.


    We don't do that here unless it's spam.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 12 Aug 2014 19:26

    DragEgusku wrote:Who/what is HLP?
    My idea was more Pandora style. But I realize that it makes no sense to continue, so I will stop.


    Herbert Limited Partnership: The Dune copyright holders.

    If you feel the need to take this further, it seems to me that the most reasonable way to pursue this interpretation/speculation would be through fan fiction, where you can simply decide that this is how it is. And who knows, it might make for an interesting story.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Serkanner » 13 Aug 2014 03:14

    I think the idea for a male counterpart to the BG is a fun brain exercise, but it is not part of Dune as it was written. Perhaps you should indeed write a fanfic story. I love reading ideas by people who actually think about what they write, contrary to the garbage produced by the two Hacks.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 13 Aug 2014 05:46

    Cpt. Aramsham wrote:
    DragEgusku wrote:Who/what is HLP?
    My idea was more Pandora style. But I realize that it makes no sense to continue, so I will stop.


    Herbert Limited Partnership: The Dune copyright holders.


    Thanks for the clarification. I do not intend to contact the HLP, in any case I'm not a writer, just a passionate reader. And I do not compare myself to any real writer, because I'm by no means a talent.

    Cpt. Aramsham wrote:If you feel the need to take this further, it seems to me that the most reasonable way to pursue this interpretation/speculation would be through fan fiction, where you can simply decide that this is how it is. And who knows, it might make for an interesting story..


    Maybe if I were a writer, I should do that. But all I have are just some ideas and I do not know how to translate them into a story. If someone will want to write a story based on these ideas, he/she is welcome.

    Serkanner wrote:I think the idea for a male counterpart to the BG is a fun brain exercise, but it is not part of Dune as it was written. Perhaps you should indeed write a fanfic story. I love reading ideas by people who actually think about what they write, contrary to the garbage produced by the two Hacks.


    I answered above. If I write a fanfic story, I'm afraid I'd produce a pile of garbage more stinky than the prequels/sequels. And I don't want that.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Serkanner » 13 Aug 2014 06:05

    DragEgusku wrote:I answered above. If I write a fanfic story, I'm afraid I'd produce a pile of garbage more stinky than the prequels/sequels. And I don't want that.


    Impossible.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 14 Aug 2014 04:59

    Yeah I don't think so either.
    Even the worst fanfiction can't come close to what the hack has done with the blessing of the people whose job was to protect the legacy. Even though they also felt things had been neglected.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby Frybread » 04 Sep 2014 20:37

    If the Tleilaxu genetically engineered their own KW, it could be possible to "create" men who could access genetic memory. But they'd have no reason to do so with their gholas and serial immortality.

    It's also possible that some of male Atreides descendants could have inherited the right genetic makeup to survive the agony.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby DragEgusku » 10 Sep 2014 06:38

    I'll do a summary of my ideas about these hypothetical Enaotics. Basically, they're an organization of (male) mentats with male genetic OMs, not KHs. They seek knowledge and self-improvement. They learn from the Bene Gesserit, from the Bene Tleilax, from Ixians, from exceptional individuals, even from Leto.
    In fact, I like to imagine that Leto suppressed the mentats for several reasons: to increase the pressure on humanity and to somehow control these Enaotics - for the hydraulic despotism does not work in their case, because they're not addicted to spice. Of course, this is pure personal speculation.
    But that's not the whole idea. In fact, the Enaotics are only a framework for my idea.
    My idea is related to something from The Scattering.
    And here I hesitate, because this idea involves a super-hero, in fact a god. And I know that Frank has rejected the myth of the hero, so my idea is probably wrong. But I asked myself: what happens if you apply The Golden Path to an individual? In other words, a personal Golden Path plus the ideology of Enaotics. From there it all started.
    In my defense, I would add that this god does not want to control mankind, but rather to engage in a limited way in the history of a part of humanity - what really interests him is his own evolution. And this influence can propagate (or not) on a larger scale. And yes, this god is an Enaotic.
    The history of this god begins when the humanity escaped the influence of Leto, ie at the beginning of The Scattering, and continues up to the "present" from CHoD.
    But like I said, I guess the idea is anti-orthodox, so you can ridicule me.
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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2014 16:34

    I'm not sure what you mean by "god." It sounds like you're just suggesting that a person should want to participate in the world, but not try to control it. We can already do that - it's called not being an asshole. And if this person should want to learn and improve himself - we already do that too, it's called being a thinker. Beyond these two things, why call your hero a "god"? Frank didn't reject heroes, I think he'd have recognized that there can be real heroes. What he rejects in Dune is the idea that we should be following heroes instead of following our own minds. Anytime you accept someone else's lead you turn off your brain. There can't be a "god" unless he's worshipped; otherwise he's just a man with some abilities as we all are.

    As for why a male could not survive the agony, it's because of the inherent differences between men and women according to the Dune series. Women aren't 'just a man with boobs', they have very different traits. You seem disturbed that there are no male RM's...are you also disturbed that we never see a female Guild Navigator? Because this is the symmetry you're talking about; woman to hold the keys to genetic past, man to look forward into the future. Maybe you think this is a stereotype, but Frank knows this and goes further with it. The Tleilaxu ask the same question you do. It takes them 12,000 more years than it took the BG, but they DO come up with a way for men to have memories of other lives. The Tleilaxu serial memories is an analogue to what the RM's can do.

    Why can a man not survive the agony? Because the agony is a type of birth, as someone mentioned. Men aren't designed to give birth, women are! Frank takes this fact very seriously. The KH needs to be a man with a women's instincts, who can be a giver (e.g. of life, the passer on of the genes and racial history) and as well as a taker. No man until Paul had the ability to realize the need to give of himself to the lives of others, to literally give of his own body for the purpose of fostering a new life. Paul called himself the ultimate servant, and notice that the BG always say they exist only to serve. This is a "giver" maxim. It's not because other men were too selfish, it's because their genes made them incapable of it to the full extent needed. Notice that the Tleilaxu came up with their own version of the agony, in the re-awakening of ghola memories. In DM this is described as a type of birth as well, and Hayt himself recognizes that even he wouldn't have survived it without his Zensunni training; compare this to the RM's needing to have been BG trained to survive their agonies.

    There is no secret male BG cabal, there can't be one. But if 'male-type RM's' is what you're looking for, then either the KH or the Tleilaxu gholas/masters will have to suffice for you. If you don't like it then you are probably in agreement with the Sisterhood in your distaste for their 'male' methods.

    But here's the real kicker: We do get to meet a male Reverend Mother in the Dune series who is not Paul or Leto II. Can you guess who?














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    Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

    Postby lotek » 26 Sep 2014 06:21

    I have to dig out Manny again?

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    Women aren't 'just a man with boobs'




    Oh, and what georgie said.
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