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    any idea when in earths history dune falls?

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    Re: any idea when in earths history dune falls?

    Postby Freakzilla » 16 Jan 2018 14:37

    Omphalos wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:So what would cause this great change, cultural or otherwise? Moon base? Mars Colony? Asteroid Colony? Generation ship to another star? I only mentioned the moon landing as the beginning of mankind's movement though deep space for a point of reference. It doesn't in itself have to be a earthshaking cultural revolution.

    Are you fucking kidding me too? BTW, the cultural influence exists now. I do not have to be a time traveler to get it.

    EDIT: Look, maybe I need to be crystal clear here, because I cannot believe that two otherwise intelligent persons such as yourselves aren't getting it. All I am saying is that the moon landing had significant cultural effects. Are the two of you honestly debating that point?

    No, I agree with you. I'm just asking them, if not that then what, in terms of space travel, would do it?
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    Re: any idea when in earths history dune falls?

    Postby distrans » 16 Jan 2018 18:00

    id say that a number of successful interstellar colonizations would be the threshold
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    Re: any idea when in earths history dune falls?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 17 Jan 2018 12:48

    Omphalos wrote:All I am saying is that the moon landing had significant cultural effects. Are the two of you honestly debating that point?

    No, I'm not arguing that it had no significant effect. It definitely did, as did several other key events in the 60's and 70's. All I'm suggesting is that it wasn't the single, stand-out event the defined the age and sent us on an entirely new course. But as Freak points out it's true that that might be too tight a standard to meet for a single event that the start of a 110 century process. As a milestone maybe it's a good marker.

    Here's a passage shortly after the SPACE TRAVEL! bit that is partly behind my position on this, and it's a partial answer to Freak's question about what kind of event would qualify for me:

    Immediately, space gave a different flavor and sense to ideas of Creation. That difference is seen even in the highest religious achievements of the period. All through religion, the feeling of the sacred was touched by anarchy from the outer dark. [1]

    It was as though Jupiter in all his descendant forms retreated into the maternal darkness to be superseded by a female immanence filled with ambiguity and with a face of many terrors. [2]

    The ancient formulae intertwined, [3] tangled together as they were fitted to the needs of new conquests and new heraldic symbols. It was a time of struggle between beast-demons on the one side and the old prayers and invocations on the other.

    I've bolded (and numbered) three bits that help form my opinion on what kinds of changes I would expect to see that fit Frank's description.

    [1] This bit implies that, whatever other cultural changes took place during this period, religions in particular were feeling some kind of strain as a result of the context of the human race changing. Presumably this wouldn't only be some internal strife, but would materially involve the public calling into question orthodoxy that had too narrow a focus on Earth. I suppose we might argue that the "touched by anarchy from the outer dark" bit could maybe be a reference to a decline in the belief in religion, which we do see today to some extent. But the general tone here seems to be discussing the changing form of religion rather than the decline of religion, so I'm not sure that kind of interpretation fits.

    [2] This part is more telling to me, as I really don't see the average person nowadays experiencing space travel (or the nature of outer space) as a thing involving terror. Mostly people seem to appreciate Hubble images and so forth as beautiful things to look at, and the tendency at the moment, if anything, is to romanticise the cosmos as almost a new form of visual art. Shows like Star Trek do touch upon the notion that it's dangerous out there in the universe, and I do think that one day people will viscerally feel this, but right now they seem not to, although the odd person you might speak to does have concerns about planet-destroying rogue asteroids.

    [3] This is the most concrete cultural reference of the three, where what's described is the precursor to the new ecumenical movement. "The ancient formulae intertwined" seems to be a reference to what later became systems like Zensuffi, Buddislamism, and so forth, which implies a cross-pollination of older systems into new combinations. I definitely don't think we're seeing that right now, although on the other hand it might be hard to detect in the short term. We do have some cross-pollination of Hinduism (often through yoga) and Buddhism into Western culture, but so far those have remained niche and contained, meaning people who are into those tend to stick to them rather than to blend them with other systems. I hear that there is some interesting ecumenical activity going on within Christianity right now, where the Catholic, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox Churches are making certain ecumenical strides for the first time and trying to finding some common ground and begin to bridge the schism between them. Of all things I can think of this most closely matches what Dune describes, which is the CET meeting to find common ground between religions. However I'll add to this that the Christian ecumenical movement going on now seems to have begun some time prior to the moon landing and was probably (if I had to guess) precipitated more by WWII and the end of the age of colonialism. I don't think space travel has any relation to that movement at present, although it would be neat if scientific pursuits did begin to inform religion at some point.

    Don't mean to blather on endlessly about this, Omph. Just trying to make a case that I'm not being an idiot about this but have reasons. But we can agree to disagree on this one :auto-crash:
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    Re: any idea when in earths history dune falls?

    Postby distrans » 19 Jan 2018 01:39

    the US dollar invested in facism east and west show'd the catholic church easily bent to advocating for it either way...

    as Apollo dragged on nasa invested enough landers educations that in the end we sent some decent geologists to the moon at the end there and science was done

    the use of coal to power lightbulbs spurned a rise in slave prices and all the market driven reactions that demanded of the time

    the british made alot of concessions to labor then that todays advocates for decent work conditions would concider superfluous

    anarchy from the outer dark

    hard to imagine a direction you cannot run with that one...
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    Re: any idea when in earths history dune falls?

    Postby ᴶᵛᵀᴬ » 21 Jan 2018 05:03


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