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    technological absurdities

    Postby distrans » 30 Jan 2018 01:14

    ive noticed two

    the first relates to the god emperor restricting the population of his empire to traveling by foot. this can only approach the plausible if both A. the empire was extremely feudal and B. there existed some friction defying technological advancement on the few mechanist worlds which allowed them to produce all the bobbles the rest of the empires several millions planets overseers would require to maintain their positions


    the second is food production on arrakis
    where the fremens food came from was never broached

    the subsistence of the fremen population around each sitch would have demanded hundreds of arces of cultivated farmlands to allow even a subsistence existence. such would be ridiculous in the world frank wrote so I guess the fremen were paying the guild to secret the amount of food they were importing from offworld
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jan 2018 06:50

    distrans wrote:ive noticed two

    the first relates to the god emperor restricting the population of his empire to traveling by foot. this can only approach the plausible if both A. the empire was extremely feudal and B. there existed some friction defying technological advancement on the few mechanist worlds which allowed them to produce all the bobbles the rest of the empires several millions planets overseers would require to maintain their positions


    They also used 'thopters.


    the second is food production on arrakis
    where the fremens food came from was never broached

    the subsistence of the fremen population around each sitch would have demanded hundreds of arces of cultivated farmlands to allow even a subsistence existence. such would be ridiculous in the world frank wrote so I guess the fremen were paying the guild to secret the amount of food they were importing from offworld


    Where did the Fremen get their food before Leto? I don't think that was ever fully explained.
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby distrans » 01 Feb 2018 21:33

    the discovery of the spice is a giant black hole

    the only thing that would have afforded arrakis to be colonized was spice mining. those colonists transformation into the fremen would be a good read...
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby georgiedenbro » 02 Feb 2018 11:46

    Freakzilla wrote:Where did the Fremen get their food before Leto? I don't think that was ever fully explained.


    The only thing that's made pretty clear is that the Fremen were a deceptively high-tech people, with surprisingly advanced techniques in certain key areas. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they had advanced agricultural methods that used minimal water, which could then be reclaimed afterwards. The way we think of as 'farming by the hectare' would surely be replaced with something superior by then. Even now we're developing methods of indoor farming in a factory setting using far less water than is used in outdoor farming.
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Feb 2018 12:03

    distrans wrote:the discovery of the spice is a giant black hole

    the only thing that would have afforded arrakis to be colonized was spice mining. those colonists transformation into the fremen would be a good read...


    I imagine they were brought as slaves to mine the spice, some escaping into the desert and learning to survive...
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby georgiedenbro » 02 Feb 2018 13:20

    Freakzilla wrote:I imagine they were brought as slaves to mine the spice, some escaping into the desert and learning to survive...


    Or what if the latest stage in the Zensunni wandering led them to occupy an otherwise barren world in order to escape persecution, and it was only by chance that, while living there, they chanced upon the spice? Once it was discovered by them we could imagine the obvious situation of a people that discovered a thing then being exploited to harvest it. When comparing the spice to something like peyote (with which, iirc FH had some experience) it might be supposed that the use of it for local, often religious reasons, would have preceded its sale on the open market. From the tone in Dune I almost do get the sense that the Fremen spice orgy made pre-date its broader use by the empire. It seems quite possible that the orgy pre-dates the Bene Gesserit influence on their religion, since as of when we see them their beliefs are a kind of blend of BG indoctrination and ancient superstition. And if their rituals pre-date the BG finding them then it seems likely it also pre-dates the empire knowing of the spice. Just my imaginings, I'm not sure if the text supports this at all.
    Last edited by georgiedenbro on 05 Feb 2018 14:57, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby distrans » 02 Feb 2018 15:41

    ive read figures well upward of 6 digits to describe the amount of water that goes into your average happy meal
    you have to turn on the shower and walk away for several months to equal that

    humans determined spices value long before the development of navigators and the spacing guilds entrance into the interplanetary spacing arena

    I wonder how far far from earth arrakis was or more so id like to see a map over time showing the expansion of humanity pre and post the guild introducing navigators to the spaceflight market

    id like to see a graph of spices value change after the guild spent how many thousand years developing navigators?

    how old are navigators anyway? did it take thousands of years to develop the first from scratch or did it take those years to figure out the correct process?

    i dont see wanders establishing themselves on arrakis unless the spices existance and value was known or they broke down and got stuck

    and i dont care how efficent youve gotten at using water on your crops you need several acres per person to feed a civilization. seem rediculous to think they did that underground which leaves us to rationally presume the fremen from their inception had a gigantic smuggling enterprize to manage in order to stay feed

    wonder where the label on their coffee said it came from?
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Feb 2018 22:42

    This should all be several topics. As for the distance from earth, we know which star Arrakis orbits. Canopus

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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby distrans » 03 Feb 2018 01:26

    that makes dune a nearby to earth

    wonder why it was invested in

    what the hell would make it interesting enough to land exploratory missions after orbital probes had shown it for the wasteland it was?

    wonder if arrakis shared a star with other inhabital planets...
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby Omphalos » 05 Feb 2018 10:52

    I am not sure why this is such a mystery. Jessica's experience clearly shows that there were lush, indoor gardens on Arrakis. The Fremen had vast reserves of water. Pretty sure in one of FH's books someone was eating a small wrap of meat and vegetables, so there was livestock on the planet.
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    Re: technological absurdities

    Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 10 Feb 2018 05:59

    Yeah, there's really no mystery here.

    The Fremen origin is the same as the rest of the Arrakeen population; they're just the part that escaped from Imperial subjugation into the wilderness (Paul: "These city people have Fremen blood. It's just that they haven't yet learned how to escape their bondage."). They were taken in slave raids from Rossak and/or Harmonthep to Arrakis, where they already lived in bondage. This was probably part of an imperial settlement program (I'm reminded of the Russian Empire, commanding whole populations to resettle in regions it wanted to develop, like Siberia). Whether spice had been discovered yet, it's unlikely that its value was understood at this time. (Of course, one could imagine that e.g. the Guild had become aware of its potential and encouraged the Empire to create permanent settlements on the planet to allow its extraction.)

    We know the main bases for food production on Arrakis. Duke Leto: "And the need to watch every drop of water puts all food production—yeast culture, hydroponics, chemavit, everything—under the strictest surveillance." Meat was available (served at the Atreides banquet, for example), but rare: The concern on Arrakis was not with water, but with moisture. Pets were almost unknown, stock animals rare.

    We know the Fremen practiced food processing in the sietches. Thufir: "From food processing and other evidence, Idaho estimates the cave complex he visited consisted of some ten thousand people, all told. Their leader said he ruled a sietch of two thousand hearths." Harah: "Through there and beyond, that's food processing and stillsuit maintenance."

    Of their industry in general, we know: The odor of the place assailed him: unwashed bodies, distillate esters of reclaimed wastes, everywhere the sour effluvia of humanity with, over it all, a turbulence of spice and spicelike harmonics. ... "How rich the odors of your sietch, Stilgar. I see you do much working with the spice . . . you make paper . . . plastics . . . and isn't that chemical explosives?" This tracks with an industrial food production. I therefore think we can assume that they similarly relied heavily on "yeast culture, hydroponics, chemavit" etc.

    We do know that they also ate "regular" food, primarily vegetable-based: "Here's food." [Chani] pressed two leaf-wrapped morsels into his hand. Jessica drinks coffee in the sietch. And of Kynes' ecological program: "A certain amount of plant cover had to be set aside to hold dunes in place; a certain amount for foodstuffs (both human and animal)"
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