Melange

    Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

User avatar
The Sons of Idaho
Posts: 90
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 18:38
Location: The Festival City of Onn

Postby The Sons of Idaho » 05 Mar 2008 09:35

Simon wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:No problem. Is there anything else I should note? I'm going through the book now so it's a good time. I might just take a few notes of important facts and mentions for future reference.

I have noted that they make mention of the color of the spice (blue, as opposed to my erroneous impression at one time that I thought it was green). They also make mention of the fish-like appearance of the navigators or "steersmen" very early on in the book. I think the first chapter. Oh and the metal Ixian eyes are mentioned for the first time when the Ghola arrives.


I used to picture it as cinnamon red before I caught on that it was blue in tint.

I thought it was a cinammon red color.
Doesn't it mention a spice blow being spotted by a slighlty darker red tint to the sand?

I remember having a blue image in my mind at one point, but then I figured that was just because of the eye color, not the spice itself.
How simple things were when our messiah was only a dream...

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Postby SandChigger » 05 Mar 2008 12:59

The Sons of Idaho wrote:Doesn't it mention a spice blow being spotted by a slighlty darker red tint to the sand?

They [=Leto II and his worm mount] passed the leprous blotches of violet sand where a spiceblow had erupted (CoD)

;)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18256
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2008 18:59

There's mention of it being blue on the sand too, but it's a tough one to find, I can't seem to find it.

Of course, the essence is blue also.

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Postby Omphalos » 05 Mar 2008 20:14

Freakzilla wrote:There's mention of it being blue on the sand too, but it's a tough one to find, I can't seem to find it.

Of course, the essence is blue also.


Something about being under the light of Canopus or something? Sorry, no books here.

Wasnt it also noted to be blue when seen in barrels with a scooper?

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18256
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2008 20:28

Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:There's mention of it being blue on the sand too, but it's a tough one to find, I can't seem to find it.

Of course, the essence is blue also.


Something about being under the light of Canopus or something? Sorry, no books here.

Wasnt it also noted to be blue when seen in barrels with a scooper?


One I know for sure:

The place had filled Moneo with awe. Great bins of melange lay all around in a
gigantic room cut from native rock and illuminated by glowglobes of an ancient
design with arabesques of metal scrollwork upon them. The spice had glowed
radiant blue in the dim silver light. And the smell-bitter cinnamon,
unmistakable. There had been water dripping nearby. Their voices had echoed
against the stone.

~GEoD

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Postby Omphalos » 05 Mar 2008 21:36

Freakzilla wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:There's mention of it being blue on the sand too, but it's a tough one to find, I can't seem to find it.

Of course, the essence is blue also.


Something about being under the light of Canopus or something? Sorry, no books here.

Wasnt it also noted to be blue when seen in barrels with a scooper?


One I know for sure:

The place had filled Moneo with awe. Great bins of melange lay all around in a
gigantic room cut from native rock and illuminated by glowglobes of an ancient
design with arabesques of metal scrollwork upon them. The spice had glowed
radiant blue in the dim silver light. And the smell-bitter cinnamon,
unmistakable. There had been water dripping nearby. Their voices had echoed
against the stone.

~GEoD


OK. That is the second one I was thinking of.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18256
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2008 21:44

That first one is probably the elusive one I can't find.

User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital
Contact:

Postby orald » 05 Mar 2008 23:08

We've already had an extensive thread on this one back on Keen, and my thoughts were that it's blue when in pure form(spice, spice essence, WoL etc), but when it's spread thin and mixed with the sands it's purplish-red, since the sand is, afterall, bright.

It's quite easy to settle it this way and it makes sense.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Postby Omphalos » 05 Mar 2008 23:23

orald wrote:We've already had an extensive thread on this one back on Keen


Well then its fucking dead, and even going over to look will stain you with a filth you can never get off. Have the conversation again.

User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital
Contact:

Postby orald » 06 Mar 2008 00:15

Err...? :?

What I mean by refering to certain past threads is to perhaps awaken memories of certain individuals who have takes part in them, like Freak and Crys. I'm surprised they didn't think of it, though it could be they never agreed to this in that thread.

Could've been on Haven though, or probably both. Can't have Dune discussions without such major threads popping up every time.

Still waiting for the cannonball thread to appear here BTW, unless there's already one? I'm too lazy to search. :P
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

User avatar
Rakis
Posts: 1583
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 00:00

Postby Rakis » 06 Mar 2008 00:20

Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:There's mention of it being blue on the sand too, but it's a tough one to find, I can't seem to find it.

Of course, the essence is blue also.


Something about being under the light of Canopus or something? Sorry, no books here.

Wasnt it also noted to be blue when seen in barrels with a scooper?


One I know for sure:

The place had filled Moneo with awe. Great bins of melange lay all around in a
gigantic room cut from native rock and illuminated by glowglobes of an ancient
design with arabesques of metal scrollwork upon them. The spice had glowed
radiant blue in the dim silver light. And the smell-bitter cinnamon,
unmistakable. There had been water dripping nearby. Their voices had echoed
against the stone.

~GEoD


OK. That is the second one I was thinking of.


I've search all my PDF files and found nothing... :cry:
Image

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Postby SandChigger » 06 Mar 2008 10:33

Cannonball thread?
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital
Contact:

Postby orald » 06 Mar 2008 14:38

Cannonball thread- What happens if you shoot a cannonball at a shielded soldier, does he or the cannonball bounce back or whatever other result it makes.

Also from this line of discussion- If "cannonballs"(i.e every high velocity projectile that would be stopped by a shield in itself) do indeed knock off people(I think thermodynamics says it would), why not still use some high caliber projectile weaponry to at least injure and disorientate? Why not use artillary bombardment that'll also tear up the ground beneath and shower tons of rocks on people?

Etc etc...but if we make one then on a new thread(general Dune discussion?), don't want to derail this current one even further from the Spacing Guild.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Postby SandChigger » 06 Mar 2008 20:13

Oh, THAT. Sorry, didn't make the connection, although it rings a bell now. I don't recall having waded through a whole thread on it, but then I didn't explore all of the twists and turns of the labyrinth that was 'Keen. (Bad organization, BAD!) ;)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital
Contact:

Postby orald » 06 Mar 2008 20:19

We had one on Haven too, IIRC.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

User avatar
Rakis
Posts: 1583
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 00:00

Postby Rakis » 07 Apr 2008 22:53

Rakis wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:There's mention of it being blue on the sand too, but it's a tough one to find, I can't seem to find it.

Of course, the essence is blue also.


Something about being under the light of Canopus or something? Sorry, no books here.

Wasnt it also noted to be blue when seen in barrels with a scooper?


One I know for sure:

The place had filled Moneo with awe. Great bins of melange lay all around in a
gigantic room cut from native rock and illuminated by glowglobes of an ancient
design with arabesques of metal scrollwork upon them. The spice had glowed
radiant blue in the dim silver light. And the smell-bitter cinnamon,
unmistakable. There had been water dripping nearby. Their voices had echoed
against the stone.

~GEoD


OK. That is the second one I was thinking of.


I've search all my PDF files and found nothing... :cry:


Bump!

Found this in the DE, by way of the site that Leto comes from :

To date the structure of the biologically active portion of spice has not been isolated, although it is known that other portions of the molecule contain glycoprotein, a cupric heme and cinnamic acid...


The deep blue color of melange is due in part to the presence of the heme group. It is believed, however, that the biologically active portion of the molecule possesses a fluorescent quality in certain light Wavelengths.


So the spice, according to the DE, has a copper base property that turns blue, i guess because of the hot sun of Dune.
Image

User avatar
Tleilax Master B
Posts: 674
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:54
Location: Desert of New Mexico

Postby Tleilax Master B » 08 Apr 2008 08:41

Note that it refers to the "biologically active" part. This has been my theory all along, and goes with the statement in the Plowboy interview that it is "like spermatic material." This is why it can be reproduced in axolotl tanks. Otherwise, it wouldn't make much sense. The womb (tank) needs to be able to use mitosis/meiosis to reproduce the spice in order for the concept to be believable.
Image

User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital
Contact:

Postby orald » 08 Apr 2008 10:46

Umm...why? We've got bacteria producing insulin, and they've just got genes for it artificially inserted. Same with the exlotl tanks- it can be just a gene(after all, it's the "language of God") to make it, which would explain what "cards" Scytale still holds in ChD even after he gave the BG clone capable tanks.

It's one thing to grow a baby out of some cells you got(reversing them to stem cells and letting them go through the whole thing again?), it's another to engineer a gene to manufacture spice(especially since those are two different, not wholly compatible systems- Arrakisian and Terran).

This whole "biologically active portion" sounds to me, esecially with the later elaboration about other parts of the molecule, like pharmacutical talk about active substances and parts of mulecules. Active regions.
Biologically active doesn't necessarily means alive. From the talk about the mulecule parts it shows quite clearly it's about active regions(i.e parts of a molecule that react and give the actual effects).

It's like they say about drugs, the active component in cannabis is so and so.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

User avatar
Tleilax Master B
Posts: 674
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:54
Location: Desert of New Mexico

Postby Tleilax Master B » 08 Apr 2008 13:37

orald wrote:Umm...why? We've got bacteria producing insulin, and they've just got genes for it artificially inserted. Same with the exlotl tanks- it can be just a gene(after all, it's the "language of God") to make it, which would explain what "cards" Scytale still holds in ChD even after he gave the BG clone capable tanks.

The only way it can be "just a gene" is if said materials are inserted into a cellular body, and that cellular body replicates (mitosis--meiosis in the case of gametes), thus producing more "copies" of the genetic material. The whole point of axolotl tank (IMO) is to use nature (i.e the human womb) in a way its already designed to be used. Since the womb provides the mechanism from the fertilized ovum (diploid cell resulting from the union of an ovum and the haploid spermatozoon) to replicate via meiosis, then it would make sense that this mechanism is also used to replicate other cells. You simply cannot insert raw genetic material into a womb and get a resulting organism. It doesn't work like that.

Insulin is produced via the bacteria (a cellular organism). This is done by using enzymes to "clip" this section of genes, they are then spliced into the genome of the bacteria, which then adopts it as its own. When it goes to produce protein, its now coded for insulin and the bacteria goes about its merry way making the insulin. Bacteria produce very rapidly, and thus you can get lots of the stuff in a relatively short amount of time.

This would only be analogous if the women themselves (the Tanks) were having there genetic code altered to produce spice in their cells, then extracting it somehow, and in such a way that the cell is not disrupted from its normal processes that involve keeping the woman alive. Women themselves do not reproduce themselves like bacteria--thus the quantity of spice would be miniscule unless you used a whole lot of woman to do this. And once again, this assume the process doesn't result in death.



It's one thing to grow a baby out of some cells you got(reversing them to stem cells and letting them go through the whole thing again?), it's another to engineer a gene to manufacture spice(especially since those are two different, not wholly compatible systems- Arrakisian and Terran).


Not sure what you are getting at here. Even if you were to "engineer a gene" to manufacture spice, you would presumably have to implant it in a cellular body to form an organism that would produce it. Once again, genes don't just exist outside of the genomic sequence. That is what they are--a locatable region in the genomic sequence within a cell or organism.

This whole "biologically active portion" sounds to me, esecially with the later elaboration about other parts of the molecule, like pharmacutical talk about active substances and parts of mulecules. Active regions.
Biologically active doesn't necessarily means alive. From the talk about the mulecule parts it shows quite clearly it's about active regions(i.e parts of a molecule that react and give the actual effects).


Yes, that is true. "Biologically active" generally means it has an effect on the metabolic activity of cells.

My point is this: Every single thing that is produced in the axolotl tanks (placing spice on the back burner for now) is a celllular organism: gholas, face dancers, chairdogs, Bijaz, presumably futars, etc. The only other thing produced is melange. Frank says in an interview that spice is "like spermatic material", which would indicate that it is in some way cellular. Thus, it would make sense that it could be produced in an axolotl tank.
Image

User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital
Contact:

Postby orald » 08 Apr 2008 14:41

You simply cannot insert raw genetic material into a womb and get a resulting organism. It doesn't work like that.

Who said anythign about that? They can do exactly what you so eloquently described goes with the insulin bacteria and viola, you've got spice.
A tank can be made to produce spice and extract it without being killed.
It can be done like a cat producing an antidote to a poison(*sigh* yes, from the Lynch version, but it was made with FH, he could've helped them in that bit) in its milk.

Or, from what you're saying, they give birth to babies(or more likely, a big yucky mass of cells) filled with spice, then extract the spice out of the cells...this doesn't sound that fast either.

Frank says in an interview that spice is "like spermatic material", which would indicate that it is in some way cellular.

Can you bring a snip of that? I always hear about it but never read it myself.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

User avatar
Tleilax Master B
Posts: 674
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:54
Location: Desert of New Mexico

Postby Tleilax Master B » 08 Apr 2008 15:45

orald wrote:
You simply cannot insert raw genetic material into a womb and get a resulting organism. It doesn't work like that.

Who said anythign about that? They can do exactly what you so eloquently described goes with the insulin bacteria and viola, you've got spice.

Well, that is how the tanks normally work, given the little bit of information we know about them. Cells (either living or cadaver) are put in the tank and a ghola is grown.

A tank can be made to produce spice and extract it without being killed. It can be done like a cat producing an antidote to a poison(*sigh* yes, from the Lynch version, but it was made with FH, he could've helped them in that bit) in its milk.


You are assuming that spice is some type of cellularly produced protein or something similar. There is no reason to assume it is "produced" in the way you described. It is not necessarily a substance produced as a byproduct (or end product) of normal metabolic pathways.

Or, from what you're saying, they give birth to babies(or more likely, a big yucky mass of cells) filled with spice, then extract the spice out of the cells...this doesn't sound that fast either.

What I suggest is that spice is something akin to a gamete. It is a cellular organism or stage that is being reproduced in the same way all cellular division is reproduced. The cells divide and split. The womb, presumably, is an ideal environment for this. It is in fact what it is specifically for.

Frank says in an interview that spice is "like spermatic material", which would indicate that it is in some way cellular.

Can you bring a snip of that? I always hear about it but never read it myself.


Here it is in its entirety:

http://www.sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm

Here is the page in question, if I'm not mistaken I beleive Freakzilla indicated this was a missing page at one time:

(32)

it completely without referring to the text and I’m afraid that most of it is given in the text, but I think that the question of the sand trout and the---

H: That’s right.

M: Is one of the vectors from the sand trout to the dry leathery to the sand trout---no---dry leathery thing---sand trout---to little maker--to---a--

H: To the big---to the worm---to the big one.

M: To the---yes---well---but it—-- it goes through---does little maker just go directly into tho worm, or is there another---

H: No, that’s---it goes directly into the worm.

M: Goes directly into the worm.

H: It’s a matter of growth process.

M: All right. To the---to Shai hulud itself, and then Shai hulud spice, I think, becomes the eggs.

H: Well, the spice, as I conceived it

M: Spermatic material--—

H: The spice as I conceived it was necessary for the development from, let’s say, the pupil stage.

M: Yes.

H: For him to go beyond the pupil stage, they had to have to be in the presence of the spice. That’s the way I conceived it.

M: I see.

H: That’s why it’s so--

M: I think the spice itself is almost as being spermatic material.

H: That’s right. That’s exactly right.

M: And then there’s spice growing into the-——well, ultimately the little maker.
Image

User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital
Contact:

Postby orald » 08 Apr 2008 16:21

H: The spice as I conceived it was necessary for the development from, let’s say, the pupil stage.

M: Yes.

H: For him to go beyond the pupil stage, they had to have to be in the presence of the spice. That’s the way I conceived it.

M: I see.

H: That’s why it’s so--

M: I think the spice itself is almost as being spermatic material.

H: That’s right. That’s exactly right.

M: And then there’s spice growing into the-——well, ultimately the little maker.

Well, if this page is missing from there, I can't see FH's reply to the last line(I only looked a bit so far), but I suppose it's affermitive(I thought the sand-plankton just lived among and fed on the spice :? Doesn't it say that in the appendix?).
The opening of this quote seems to indicate the spice is a catalyst for growth, like a hormone etc, but if it actually becomes sand plankton etc then it's also living cell, like you said.

I'll concede then, to the idea the spice is a living thing, though I think you said(or was it just in the "Dune from 'shrooms" article?) it resembles spores, which considering the harsh conditions in Arrakis I'll say is a better description(not that it matters much about anything other than ressistence to hard conditions and longetivity in a dorment state).

I still say we can't know for sure what the actual process of the tanks is.
At least until P&B reveal it in PoD or some other installment. :lol:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

User avatar
Tleilax Master B
Posts: 674
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:54
Location: Desert of New Mexico

Postby Tleilax Master B » 08 Apr 2008 16:42

I agree that we don't know all the details of the tanks; my opinions are just that. Theories based on the what is mentioned, particularly in the last two books of the series. From a biological stand point (albeit far fetched) it makes the most sense to me that if the tanks are the bloated wombs of women, the reason is that its an ideal location to harbor cellular division to produce the types of products the BT produced.

At least that's the way we used to do it on Bandalong :wink:
Image

User avatar
Rakis
Posts: 1583
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 00:00

Postby Rakis » 08 Apr 2008 22:53

Hmmm...what about this part:

...the biologically active portion of the molecule possesses a fluorescent quality in certain light Wavelengths.


Could this be some kind of fluorescent fungus in the spermy thing? :|
Image

User avatar
Crysknife
Posts: 593
Joined: 09 Feb 2008 02:15
Location: SLC, punk

Postby Crysknife » 09 Apr 2008 00:16

Why am I having visions of dark motel rooms and inspectors waving black lights slowly over the beds? :?
Image