Question about the Preborn

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A Thing of Eternity
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Question about the Preborn

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Apr 2008 18:08

This one has always bugged me, and if someone could clear this up for me I'd relly appreciate it. FH goes to great lengths to explain why Alia is born with other memory, but I never really caught why Ghanima and Leto are born with it. I remember reading in CoD that it was due to Chani's spice addiction, but that's the same as all the other Fremen/BG births. I've had to just assume it's because of Paul being the Kwisatz Haderach. Did I miss a chapter?
Please cure my ignorance.
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Postby Mandy » 11 Apr 2008 18:49

It probably has to do with the poison Irulan was feeding her.

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Postby orald » 11 Apr 2008 18:52

Because of what Mandy said, she had to take extra spice, and I mean EXTRA extra.

DM is really my weakest link though, so I can't elaborate on it.
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Postby Omphalos » 11 Apr 2008 18:55

Mandy wrote:It probably has to do with the poison Irulan was feeding her.


And the spice based cure she took doses of before she delivered the twins. And Atreides genetics. And the Fremen diet and environment.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Apr 2008 19:22

I'll buy it, but it does still feel like a weak link to me.
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Postby Omphalos » 11 Apr 2008 19:31

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I'll buy it, but it does still feel like a weak link to me.


Well, it was consumption of dangerous levels of spice, IIRC the language correctly. Not sure what else you need.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Apr 2008 19:42

Maybe, but I got the impression in Dune that the unborn child would get OM only as a side effect of the mother gaining OM while pregnant. I'm okay with it being due to a combination of high melange intake and the Atreides genetics, but just being due to the spice without Chani experiencing some effect (OM related effect) is a bit of a stretch for me. Is there anything in the text that might hint at what effects Chani was suffering? I know I'm being nit picky, but this has always really bugged me and I'd hate to have a peev with the story just because I missread something.
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Postby orald » 11 Apr 2008 19:47

Yea, like I said EXTRA EXTRA dosage. It kinda sped her pregnancy too IIRC, and was what exhausted and killed her.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Apr 2008 20:01

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the effect it had on her pregnancy (i'm obviously due for a re-read). That combined with Paul's genetics is enough for me, I'm quite satisfied now.
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Postby orald » 11 Apr 2008 20:07

Not like you could ever doubt Frank's word on it, right? Right?! :evil:
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Postby Mandy » 11 Apr 2008 20:09

It is an interesting question though. There were other drugs besides WoL that could bring on the change...maybe Irulan poisoned Chani with one of them, since Chani was already addicted to the spice it wouldn't work to open OM for her.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Apr 2008 20:24

orald wrote:Not like you could ever doubt Frank's word on it, right? Right?! :evil:


I'd sooner doubt my attention to detail than his word on it, but inconsistancies do happen, even to the best of em.
I'm at peace with it now, I wasn't taking into consideration mass overdose of the spice.
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Postby SandChigger » 11 Apr 2008 20:56

Didn't Freak post something somewhere recently about the twins undergoing their own little Agony/Awakening in the womb in response to the poison and massive amounts of spice?

A sort of instinctive response to the toxin. Something they were able to do because of the Atreides + Fremen genes?

Made sense to me. ;)
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Postby orald » 11 Apr 2008 21:19

I think it was just the spice. The poison was just there as a reason for the increased spice consumption. It's just a poison really.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Apr 2008 23:24

I guess it could just be the spice. The BG have their own terminology for the pre-born (abomination) so it must have happened before.
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Postby Freakzilla » 11 Apr 2008 23:38

Irulan was secretly administering a contraceptive and Chani was on a Fremen fertility diet that was extremely high in spice. I think the contraceptive and the fertility diet fighting each other created similar conditions to the Water of Life.
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Postby Mandy » 12 Apr 2008 15:32

After I hung up the internet last night I remembered that Chani went on a special Fremen diet when she had trouble conceiving.. so she was off the poisonous contraceptive Irulan was giving her while she was pregnant with the twins. There might have been residue of it left in her system though.

I just started rereading the series and am almost finished with Dune, I'll pay closer attention when I get to this part.

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Postby Freakzilla » 12 Apr 2008 15:39

I could be that the twins' Atreides genes made them more sensitive to the spice. They were only half-Fremen babies.
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Postby Tyrant » 12 Apr 2008 23:40

Freakzilla wrote:I could be that the twins' Atreides genes made them more sensitive to the spice. They were only half-Fremen babies.


actually only chani's mother was true fremen..liet was the one who was half fremen ....that basically makes ghanima less than half fremen
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Postby SandChigger » 13 Apr 2008 01:23

Do I hear three-quarters? Three-quarters! Going once-uh...going twice-uh...SOLD!

:shock:
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Postby Crysknife » 13 Apr 2008 02:14

AToE, I posted a theory of mine in another thread on why the twins are preborn. Looks like no one is buying it, but read it and see what you think. Here's a link.

http://www.jacurutu.com./viewtopic.php? ... c&start=15
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Postby orald » 13 Apr 2008 06:50

Tyrant wrote:actually only chani's mother was true fremen..liet was the one who was half fremen ....that basically makes ghanima less than half fremen

So is Ghani still a Jew? No, wait... :?

Be glad I didn't try to turn this into some joke on Nazi race doctrine. :P

Crys, I'll have to reread DM sometime, but your theory makes sense.
I do remember vaguely that she died very quickly.
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Postby Serkanner » 13 Apr 2008 07:15

I have just read Crys' theory and I do buy it. It is a plausible theory and there are ( as far as I know ) no direct hints that undermine this theory.

I have always thought that Paul indeed decided to let Chani die to prevent her from worse. That he decided to let Irulan give the contraceptive because as long as Chani wasn't pregnant she would not be killed.

Paul prolonged her life this way until Chani found out about the contraceptive herself and switched to the Fremen diet. This decision was her death warrent and Paul knew he couldn't stop it.

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Postby inhuien » 13 Apr 2008 08:47

Serkanner wrote:I have just read Crys' theory and I do buy it. It is a plausible theory and there are ( as far as I know ) no direct hints that undermine this theory.

I have always thought that Paul indeed decided to let Chani die to prevent her from worse. That he decided to let Irulan give the contraceptive because as long as Chani wasn't pregnant she would not be killed.

Paul prolonged her life this way until Chani found out about the contraceptive herself and switched to the Fremen diet. This decision was her death warrent and Paul knew he couldn't stop it.


Yes, Yes and Yes. However Paul could have stopped it at any point it's just that for the greater good of humanity and and himself he did not. Instead he ran of into the Bled and let his offspring assume the Golden Patth and the Sandtrout skin.
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Postby SandChigger » 13 Apr 2008 18:57

Sorry, Crys, forgot about that!

Makes sense. :D
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA


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