What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

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loremaster
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What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby loremaster » 15 May 2008 02:04

Following a comment by 'chigger on another thread where he suggested using imagination (How Dare He?!?!) It got me thinking about thing's I read as I wanted to read them, rather than what they said. For some parts, this was because i actually didnt LIKE the direction the book took them in.

For instance:

I didnt like Letos "Clark Kent" powers at the end of CoD. Much as i loved eveything else (sabotaging Qanats, creating a "Desert Demon" myth, challenging his father, confronting alia, showing up the corrinos etc) I thought the super-speed and super strength, along with immunity to poisons (WHICH, by the way, shouldn't be that impressive, the Bene Gesserit could do it!). etc Just seemed a bit "invulnerable". I think it could have been better constructed through tactics, plans and sabotage. Perhaps acting more under the "Jacurutu" banner.

Paul and Leto between them knew fremen ways better than the fremen themselves, they could have caused serious strife. Giving him all those super-powers was a bit too sci-fi cliche for me.



I also didnt like Schwangyu's betrayal. She plotted with BG enemies, people who sought to destroy them (the guardians of the golden path), and brought destruction on one of the most important BG projects.

Totally out of character for a BG IMO. And i think the BG didnt react in a BG way. This was a huge betrayal, the plot point seemed inconsistent and the whole thing didnt seem to fit.
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Postby Phaedrus » 15 May 2008 03:23

The first time I read the books, I really hated Leto II. My reading of GEoD made Siona and Duncan the only characters I could identify with, and since they hated Leto, I hated Leto. However, since then, I've come to understand his character much better, and he's actually one of my favorites in the Duniverse.

It's hard to think of complaints about the series...but when I think about, I think the secondary characters in CoD were handled very poorly. Alia, Jessica, Gurney, Ghanima, and others all have either very unsatisfactory or open fates. Alia and Ghanima particularly, I think, were passed over in favor of Paul and Leto. Although I like it the way it is, I would have preferred more exploration and insight into those minor characters...

Scytale from Dune Messiah is one of my favorite characters, so it's upsetting to me that Scytale from Chapterhouse is nothing like his Face Dancer original.

I don't know, it's hard to do this, because Dune is good partially because it takes the reader in unexpected and unwanted directions. Did anyone want Paul to walk into the desert at the end of Dune Messiah? Not really, because we viewed him as the hero. There was a lesson in that, and if things had gone the way we'd expected and wanted them to go, Dune would just be another story instead of the literature it is.

(I'll go ahead and say that this is one of the major failings of the bullshit being called Dune nowadays. The plot is too straightforward, and focused on a happy ending. Dune was never about happy endings(do ANY of the original books end on a happy note? Not really, when you think about it. They all end with the deaths of principal characters and not incredibly positive futures.))
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Postby Freakzilla » 15 May 2008 04:06

Duncan Idaho.
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Postby orald » 15 May 2008 06:33

Freakzilla wrote:Duncan Idaho.

You're just intimidated by The Stud. 8)

Loremaster, I don't see Schwangyu's deeds as betrayel. She was acting on behalf of what she thought were the more important BG interests- insuring there wouldn't be a second Tyrant coming out of the Duncan Idaho gholas. She was only one of a major part of the BG that questioned that project, and in no way did she actually ruin it.

Phaedrus, I loved God Leto from the first read, and always thought Siona to be a stupid bitch, and Duncan a sour dim-wit.
Of course, if you disagree, we have these two lovely 7' tall FS to accompany you to this dark and empty alley and show you God's Grace. :wink:
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Postby Freakzilla » 15 May 2008 07:29

A RM can't betray the Sisterhood, not in the long run. They always come back.

Schwangyu's last dying action was to scratch "whores" in code in the wear marks on her furniture to warn her sisters.
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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 15 May 2008 10:43

Freakzilla wrote:Duncan Idaho.

Seriously??
How simple things were when our messiah was only a dream...

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Postby Freakzilla » 15 May 2008 11:26

The Sons of Idaho wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Duncan Idaho.

Seriously??


The original was OK, but we really don't get much of him in Dune to dislike. You have to love him for sacrificing himself for saving Paul and Jessica but that's about it.

His point of view was a great technique by which FH showed how much things had changed in Leto II's empire but I didn't really like the character.

By CH:D I kept hoping he would die.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 May 2008 11:41

What didn't I like...
I'm going to get roasted for this, so let me first point out that this is a very minor dislike.
I didn't like the Baron's and his crew's total evilness. I would have personally prefered if at least one of the Harkonnens had some kind of redeeming quality. On the otherhand, Paul was a bit of an anti-hero hidden in hero's clothing, so maybe that much depth of charactor for the antagonists would have been too much.
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Postby Omphalos » 15 May 2008 12:24

I also didnt like Schwangyu's betrayal.


Me too. Though I am a lot less passionate about those last two books, so it did not register as high as my hatred of Paul's character after Dune. I hated the preacher. On another level, I hated Jessica for what she let Alia become through her abandonment, but that made for a good story. Also, I wish Hwi had died a lot, lot earlier, becuase I hated the fact that she still walked around for so long. Ask me not why, I just hated her.

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Postby orald » 15 May 2008 12:39

Omphalos wrote: Also, I wish Hwi had died a lot, lot earlier, becuase I hated the fact that she still walked around for so long. Ask me not why, I just hated her.

Oh yea, me too. She's too bloody perfect and nice. The bitch. :|
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Postby Mandy » 15 May 2008 13:12

bryanvdk wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:What didn't I like...
I'm going to get roasted for this, so let me first point out that this is a very minor dislike.
I didn't like the Baron's and his crew's total evilness. I would have personally prefered if at least one of the Harkonnens had some kind of redeeming quality. On the otherhand, Paul was a bit of an anti-hero hidden in hero's clothing, so maybe that much depth of charactor for the antagonists would have been too much.


remember the baron did have some decency despite his vices. he only did evil things out of necessity, though Piter would hurt and kill for the sheer joy of it. don't have PDFs at work but i know the quote has been put on here before


Just because he said it doesn't make it so. He may not have had the same kind of joy over someone's pain and suffering as Piter, but that doesn't make him decent.

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Postby Nekhrun » 15 May 2008 13:42

The Sons of Idaho wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Duncan Idaho.

Seriously??

My first time through I didn't like him either. I thought, of all the characters to put in all the books, why this lame-ass. Now I appreciate his humanity in relation to the Atreides characters. His POV I think helps me suspend belief long enough to appreciate just what is going on.

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Postby Omphalos » 15 May 2008 13:47

Nekhrun wrote:
The Sons of Idaho wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Duncan Idaho.

Seriously??

My first time through I didn't like him either. I thought, of all the characters to put in all the books, why this lame-ass. Now I appreciate his humanity in relation to the Atreides characters. His POV I think helps me suspend belief long enough to appreciate just what is going on.


When he died in Dune I felt cheated, because I wanted more. Then when he came back, I got sick of him quickly, whining about what he couldnt remember. I kept thinking, "well then just get lost and go build a new life!" Then, but GEoD, I was glad that he was around again. And he was so critical to the last two books that they would have been totally different without him there, that I viewed his inclusion as indespensible, and pretty well concieved anyway.

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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 15 May 2008 14:37

Nekhrun wrote:
The Sons of Idaho wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Duncan Idaho.

Seriously??

My first time through I didn't like him either. I thought, of all the characters to put in all the books, why this lame-ass. Now I appreciate his humanity in relation to the Atreides characters. His POV I think helps me suspend belief long enough to appreciate just what is going on.

I remember not thinking much of him until GEoD and later.

In Messiah, I thought it was really wierd that they brought a character back from the dead (Tleilaxu and gholas never being mentioned in Dune), especially minor character like him. By CoD I was a little more used to the idea.

But by GEoD and Heretics, he had grown on me quite a bit. He was the Everyman in a world of super-powered beings. He was also important as a literary tool, being the common thread that connected stories thousands of years apart.
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Postby HoosierDaddy » 15 May 2008 20:10

Funny I don't have a thing that I don't like about the original series. For a while I thought the DM face dancer Scytale being a master in HOD/ChD was too much of a stretch, but I got over that.

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Postby Tyrant » 15 May 2008 21:18

HoosierDaddy wrote:Funny I don't have a thing that I don't like about the original series. For a while I thought the DM face dancer Scytale being a master in HOD/ChD was too much of a stretch, but I got over that.


does it say its the same scytale?...i need to re-read the last 2..its been a while ..... but does it say its the same scytale?..maybe he was named after scytale ...i dont know...i need to re-read them (thats what smoking pot does to you)
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Postby Illogical Banana » 15 May 2008 23:41

I can't say I have any legitimate dislikes about the original six. I didn't like Alia very much, but I wouldn't change her presence in the novels.

The only other complaint I have is that they spawned certain sequels and prequels, which have tainted the story for me slightly. It's impossible for me to forget about the crap I read in those, so they'll always be lurking in the back of my mind. :x
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Postby orald » 16 May 2008 03:59

Illogical Banana wrote:The only other complaint I have is that they spawned certain sequels and prequels, which have tainted the story for me slightly. It's impossible for me to forget about the crap I read in those, so they'll always be lurking in the back of my mind. :x

Oh, I'm forgetful enough, I can barely remember the shit I've read. :D
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Postby trang » 19 May 2008 18:24

I know it plays into the story later on and FH left a lot to our imagination, but we come out of Dune, riding the High of Paul whipping the emperor's ass, and he is the SuperBeing(this is the good part).

The let down, is when you go to Messiah and FH basically kicks paul in the balls, and makes him second guess his every move, happenings of the 12 year Jihad, and fremen clensing of the universe.

just a few chapters of the Jihad, giving us more of the feeling of the Fremen, etc. I didnt need massive detail, but a gentler method of bringing down the new king would have been easier to handle, instead of right in your face pauls balls are hammered on the anvil.

The cliffhangers of chapterhouse.

Few other minor things but overall, PotatoFremenWarrior gives 10 out of 10 Chrysknives!

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Postby Dune Nerd » 19 May 2008 19:56

trang wrote:I know it plays into the story later on and FH left a lot to our imagination, but we come out of Dune, riding the High of Paul whipping the emperor's ass, and he is the SuperBeing(this is the good part).

The let down, is when you go to Messiah and FH basically kicks paul in the balls, and makes him second guess his every move, happenings of the 12 year Jihad, and fremen clensing of the universe.

Trang


That's the whole point, not to make any heroes or let anyone ride on their high horse for too long, without that it would be P&B not FH.

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Postby HoosierDaddy » 19 May 2008 20:46

Dune Nerd wrote:
trang wrote:I know it plays into the story later on and FH left a lot to our imagination, but we come out of Dune, riding the High of Paul whipping the emperor's ass, and he is the SuperBeing(this is the good part).

The let down, is when you go to Messiah and FH basically kicks paul in the balls, and makes him second guess his every move, happenings of the 12 year Jihad, and fremen clensing of the universe.

Trang


That's the whole point, not to make any heroes or let anyone ride on their high horse for too long, without that it would be P&B not FH.


Nicely said.

Paul didn't want to be remembered as a tyrant, so he ends up dying a poor blind preacher. Leto II however knew he would be remembered as "shaitan". That's why he hid his journals so carefully at Dar-Es-Balat ("I will be innocent again!").

P&B would have had Paul and Leto standing together, shimmering, with Yoda, Darth Vader, and Obi Wan. :puke:

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Postby SandChigger » 19 May 2008 22:26

Except that the Revealed Gospel now is that Leto II was also fallible and the Golden Path failed. :roll:
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Postby trang » 19 May 2008 22:58

I was posting from the perspective of as I went from book to book, not that I dont understand or appreciate how and why FH wrote it the way he did.

I dont want any more crap from BH/KJA, I was meaning I would have like to see it written by FH that way. I dont have a problem with Pauls fall from on High, I ment it was just so sudden, and would have been cool for FH to give it a little more gradient.

And Norma Cenva can bite my Chrysknife!

Trang
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Postby HoosierDaddy » 19 May 2008 23:41

trang wrote:And Norma Cenva can bite my Chrysknife!

Trang


What a heartwarming idea! Even better, the HLP, all biting a chrysknife.

Any comment Byron?

:)

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Postby SandChigger » 20 May 2008 04:21

Careful, Daddy! I'm sure that could be construed as a threat.... :(


But only by the kind of barely literate, reading-comprehension-challenged fan the action-packed best-selling new "Dune" books seem to attract. :lol:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA


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