What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

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Freakzilla
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jan 2015 16:28

Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Speaking of the post-Chapterhouse Duniverse, I was just reading CH:D and FH refered to all of the different organizations within the BG as "denominations".

What if the BG secrets do become public in the future, but in the form of a religion? :shock:


I do wonder if the BG would have done something like sharing their training with the public? Maybe religion would be the easiest and fastest way to do so at first?


Not to mention that they're experts as religious engineering.
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby georgiedenbro » 11 Jan 2015 20:49

Freakzilla wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Speaking of the post-Chapterhouse Duniverse, I was just reading CH:D and FH refered to all of the different organizations within the BG as "denominations".

What if the BG secrets do become public in the future, but in the form of a religion? :shock:


I do wonder if the BG would have done something like sharing their training with the public? Maybe religion would be the easiest and fastest way to do so at first?


Not to mention that they're experts as religious engineering.


Yes, and to add a winkle to the question, there is the old adage that someone who pretends to be a thing for long enough will begin to become to part. Since most elements of the BG order as of Dune has religious trapping or structure (even though they denied being a religious order) it wouldn't be surprising if, over time, they did morph into being legitimately quasi-religious for real.
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lotek
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby lotek » 12 Jan 2015 06:10

There's the Cult of Sheeana as it became in ChapterHouse that kind of gives an idea of that.
The BG did plan to use her as some kind of religious figure but ultimately this took a life of its own.
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jan 2015 06:48

georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Speaking of the post-Chapterhouse Duniverse, I was just reading CH:D and FH refered to all of the different organizations within the BG as "denominations".

What if the BG secrets do become public in the future, but in the form of a religion? :shock:


I do wonder if the BG would have done something like sharing their training with the public? Maybe religion would be the easiest and fastest way to do so at first?


Not to mention that they're experts as religious engineering.


Yes, and to add a winkle to the question, there is the old adage that someone who pretends to be a thing for long enough will begin to become to part. Since most elements of the BG order as of Dune has religious trapping or structure (even though they denied being a religious order) it wouldn't be surprising if, over time, they did morph into being legitimately quasi-religious for real.


"Act stupid long enough and you become stupid," Odrade said. "Perfect the
mimicry of your Face Dancers and . . ."

~HoD

Also, they seem in awe of Leto's accomplisment in this respect:

Leto II had called it "The Golden Path" and this Duncan Idaho-type ghola below
her now had figured prominently in that awesome passage. Lucilla had studied
the Bene Gesserit accounts, probably the best in the universe. Even today on
most of the old Imperial Planets, newly married couples still scattered dollops
of water east and west, mouthing the local version of "Let Thy blessings flow
back to us from this offering, O God of Infinite Power and Infinite Mercy."

Once, it had been the task of Fish Speakers and their tame priesthood to enforce
such obeisance. But the thing had developed its own momentum, becoming a
pervasive compulsion. Even the most doubting of believers said: "Well, it can
do no harm." It was an accomplishment that the finest religious engineers of
the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva admired with frustrated awe. The
Tyrant had surpassed the Bene Gesserit best. And fifteen hundred years since
the Tyrant's death, the Sisterhood remained powerless to unlock the central knot
of that fearsome accomplishment.

~HoD
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 17:04

Of all the 6 books, Messiah was the hardest read for me, it just seemed to plod on and Paul just seemed so mopey. There aren't many plot points or character points that I disliked in the series but a few that I do or did are:

- The treatment of Irulan, she could have been a lot more as a character and she didn't deserve the isolation she received in Messiah.
- Daniel and Marty were very off putting to me the first time I read CH:D, they have grown on me, but originally I felt that they were seemingly too powerful to fit into my view of the Duniverse and came out of nowhere in a way I felt was forced. It didn't help that FH's passing meant we got no resolution to that twist.
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 06 Feb 2015 20:21

I would say the early death of duncan idaho. For a character so important in pauls young life and the following books, he deserved more chapters in Dune.
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby pcqypcqy » 06 Sep 2017 22:12

Here are some rambling bug bears of mine:

The BT seem inept in Heretics. For all their vaunted experiences and their long term plan, a few clues and a bit of analysis was enough for the BG to turn them inside out and lead them around by the nose. Scytale in Messiah was able to cross swords with Mohiam, and they were at least equals, perhaps Scytale was even more capable then Mohiam. But Waff is inept, and Scytale in Chapterhouse is a pale comparison to Scytale in Messiah.

Sheeana bugged me a fair bit. Perhaps it was because we never saw where the BG plan for her was going after chapterhouse, but I never really got into her.

There were some shallow / pantomime characters that pissed me off a fair bit. Yueh. Wensencia. Farad'n was built up to be this big thing and then he just becomes a scribe and a stud. Felt like a whole part of CoD that was unnecessary.

At first I thought Messiah was pointless and just plodded along, but then I realised the concepts introduced in this book that really shape the rest of the series: Ability to restore a ghola's memories. Total prescience is not actually all it's cracked up to be. The Bene Tleilax.

The BG felt a bit bumbling for the first few books. It wasn't until GEoD that we started to get an idea of what they're really like, and it really isn't until Heretics that we see the inner workings. I quite liked the last two books for this exact reason.

I thought Moneo was a bit of an idiot by the end of GEoD. Complaining about everything. Seemed really upset about not getting to bang Hwi.

Hwi I thought was OK, a bit soporific, but an important tool for the story so we could learn about Leto II's lingering humanity. Gave us some insight into Ix as well which we don't really get at any other time.

That'll do.

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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby georgiedenbro » 07 Sep 2017 09:46

If the BT seem inept in Heretics, consider all of what isn't said about them. We've tried to deduce some of it in other threads, and this may include having already been compromised by the HM, being on the cusp of a new technology and taking some risks to trying to rush it through, and then there's the issue of the Scattering-BT and the threat the original BT face. They're under the gun from the word go and I suspect that by Heretics they're desperate to salvage their situation. I doubt that even Waff could consider an alliance with the BG unless they were already under the gun.
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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby pcqypcqy » 07 Sep 2017 17:29

georgiedenbro wrote:If the BT seem inept in Heretics, consider all of what isn't said about them. We've tried to deduce some of it in other threads, and this may include having already been compromised by the HM, being on the cusp of a new technology and taking some risks to trying to rush it through, and then there's the issue of the Scattering-BT and the threat the original BT face. They're under the gun from the word go and I suspect that by Heretics they're desperate to salvage their situation. I doubt that even Waff could consider an alliance with the BG unless they were already under the gun.



But we get quite a lot of Waff's internal dialogue in Heretics, and at the start of the book where he meets the HM, he's full of himself and confident in the BT ascendancy. There's be some hint of what you say in his mind if this was the case I think.

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Re: What DIDN'T you like in the original 6?

Postby georgiedenbro » 08 Sep 2017 09:50

pcqypcqy wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:But we get quite a lot of Waff's internal dialogue in Heretics, and at the start of the book where he meets the HM, he's full of himself and confident in the BT ascendancy. There's be some hint of what you say in his mind if this was the case I think.


Hard to say. If they were on the cusp of a new technology it could certainly mean their ascendancy even if they're also in terrible danger. Don't forget the thousands of years of them being certain of victory; it would make them prone to interpret a dangerous situation as the catalyst for their dominance rather than potential destruction. I doubt they could have accepted the possibility of what later happens to their people. The deep fanaticism probably comes with deep denial as well. The desperation would be in their methods, not necessarily their attitudes.
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