CH:D/HoD differences copy

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Postby Freakzilla » 15 Jun 2008 08:43

Jakob von Gunten wrote:I'd like to kindly request a copy (or copies if you have both HoD and CHD) as well.

Sent
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Postby Freakzilla » 15 Jun 2008 08:44

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Thank you!

EDIT: The blue is UK only, the red is US only and the black is both? Do I have that right or backwards?


I can't remember, hopefully Edric will be around shortly and clear that up.
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Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 10:15

Yea, he has alot to clear up.
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Postby trang » 15 Jun 2008 16:37

is the difference significant? what does paul wear an ascot and drink tea?
Speak Britishy?

"the bloody sleeper has awaken"?

"that feyd is a Wanker "?

"A pint of Spice coffee if ya please, Luv"?


sorry just curious,

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Postby Jakob von Gunten » 15 Jun 2008 23:50

Freakzilla wrote:
Jakob von Gunten wrote:I'd like to kindly request a copy (or copies if you have both HoD and CHD) as well.

Sent



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Postby Edric » 16 Jun 2008 06:16

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Thank you!

EDIT: The blue is UK only, the red is US only and the black is both? Do I have that right or backwards?


I can't remember, hopefully Edric will be around shortly and clear that up.


You got it right Blue UK red US black Both


is the difference significant? what does paul wear an ascot and drink tea?
Speak Britishy?

"the bloody sleeper has awaken"?

"that feyd is a Wanker "?

"A pint of Spice coffee if ya please, Luv"?


sorry just curious,

There are paraghrphs of differences between the two versions!
In Heretics the Harkonnen no-globe is from the time of the tyrant in the US version and before the Tyrant in the UK version (Backing up BH & KJA's plotline in the prequel novels)! The sandworms are bigger in the US version and basically there is a whole load of stuff that makes the story different.

In chapterhouse there is a whole chapter is the US version that's missing in the UK copy, but the UK version has more material that's not in the US version. Also all but something like 3 chapters are different, and I'm talking about paragraph after paragraph of new material.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Jun 2008 11:55

I've only went through the comp HoD so far, some really weird wording changes, obviously just FH or an editor cleaning up the wording... but many of even the small changes are still significant. The whole scene where Waff is getting grilled by a BG (odrade? I'm tired) - the two versions have him reacting completely differently, just by changing the ends of sentences and such. The big changes are just bizarre too, over an entire extra page at one point I think. Also, the no-globe thing is weird.

It looks to me like FH accidently sent the UK an earlier draft, even though it contains more text. Most of the changes to the US version make things more subtle (though not all) and a bit more ambiguous, wheras the UK version looked a bit more obvious at points to me. That's why I would assume that the UK is the earlier draft, though I could be wrong.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 16 Jun 2008 15:43

Could it be possible that they books actually had different editors? The UK editor might have asked FH to clarify some things, while the US editor didn't bother, (but asked for cuts).

That seems outrageous, but I don't know how the publishing industry works (or how it worked 20-odd years ago).

HBJ

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Jun 2008 15:55

Hunchback Jack wrote:Could it be possible that they books actually had different editors? The UK editor might have asked FH to clarify some things, while the US editor didn't bother, (but asked for cuts).

That seems outrageous, but I don't know how the publishing industry works (or how it worked 20-odd years ago).

HBJ


That's probably part of it too. Some of these changes look too big to be done by the editor though.
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Postby orald » 16 Jun 2008 16:06

Could it be then that P&B sent the editors unfinished versions of all their books, each and every time, and never noticed it? Too much to hope for? :P
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 16 Jun 2008 16:32

Edric wrote:In Heretics the Harkonnen no-globe is from the time of the tyrant in the US version and before the Tyrant in the UK version (Backing up BH & KJA's plotline in the prequel novels)!


I'm not sure the UK version is clear about that. The UK text reads:

It was remarkably primitive in all of its aspects, including the machinery and the nullentropy bins at the core. Teg guessed it to be much earlier than that of the Tyrant and, if the stories about Dar-es-Balat were to be trusted, this early technology represented a remarkable achievement.


The emphasized phrase could mean that the no-globe was earlier than no-globes used by the Tyrant - at Dar-es-Balat for example. If Leto's no-globes were built toward the end of his reign (to hide his journals), then this no-globe could be from an earlier time, but still well within Leto's reign.

In short, this no-globe was remarkable in that it predated Leto's (primitive) no-globes, and used an even more primitive technology to achieve the effect. But it may not necessarily mean that it predated Leto's reign.

One could even speculate that the U.S. edition was edited to avoid the ambiguity, and make it clear that the no-globe was from Leto's time.

Edited to add: In fact, if Dar-es-Balat was the only no-chamber that Leto was known to have used, then the emphasized phrase becomes less ambiguous - it is referring specifically to that no-globe.

Just a thought.

HBJ

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Postby SandChigger » 16 Jun 2008 20:20

Remember the constraints that the inscription over the door to Dar-es-Balat places on the dating of that complex: you have to fit a four-thousand-year period within the five thousand years from the beginning of Leto's reign through the beginning of Heretics. (He began the journals in the first year of his reign.)

That leaves only one thousand years to play around with. And the Hidden Journals from the complex had been known long enough for parts to have been incorporated into BG tradition. The speech given by what's-his-name announcing the discovery of the complex mentions centuries....

It's impossible to date it exactly, but Dar-es-Balat was probably built sometime between 200 and 800 years into Pax Letonis (Letus?). It makes sense that the Harkonnens would have been more of a problem and in need of something to keep them occupied and to drain their reserves more towards the beginning of his reign than towards the end. (Who knows, maybe he let them fund the majority of the Ixian R&D and then used the result in his own complex! ;) )
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Jun 2008 00:24

Hmm. I see. So it does seem likely that the Gammu no-globe was pre-Leto, or at least very early Leto.

It occurred to me that the storehouse itself could have existed before the no-globe constructed to hide it (i.e. Leto could effectively prevent the storehouse's discovery while he was alive, and only needed the no-globe close to his death), but I admit that's probably stretching things too far.

HBJ

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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2008 04:54

I believe Leto started his Journals in the first year of his reign.
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Postby SandChigger » 17 Jun 2008 05:16

( ^^^ Never reads anything I write. :P )

HBJ, that's a point. But all that forbidden Ixian tech and the journals themselves would have required a fair Fish Speaker contingent to protect...so there goes any hope of concealment.


Btw, I assume that the journals were actually written by hand when he started them. The Ixian thought-recorders would have come later. (Before or concurrent with the Dar-es-Balat no-complex?)
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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2008 06:59

Admittedly, I just scanned the last several post. I shouldn't do that before coffe.

I was under the impression that Leto used the Dictatel from the begining. The sandtrout skin probably made it difficult to write.
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Postby Mr. Teg » 17 Jun 2008 10:12

Could Leto function as a mentat?
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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2008 10:32

Mr. Teg wrote:Could Leto function as a mentat?


I'm sure there's a mentat in Other Memory somewhere, not to mention OM of Paul.

My answer would be yes.
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Postby SandChigger » 17 Jun 2008 10:36

Freakzilla wrote:Admittedly, I just scanned the last several post. I shouldn't do that before coffe.

I was under the impression that Leto used the Dictatel from the begining. The sandtrout skin probably made it difficult to write.

Was just kidding about the first!

I guess that's possible, but is there anything to indicate that he had problems using his hands in the early years? (I just assumed that he learned to control them like he relearned how to walk, etc.)

Also, would the Ixians have had the thought-recorders at the beginning of his reign, or would such devices have been something they developed in response to his requests/orders?
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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2008 10:53

SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Admittedly, I just scanned the last several post. I shouldn't do that before coffe.

I was under the impression that Leto used the Dictatel from the begining. The sandtrout skin probably made it difficult to write.

Was just kidding about the first!


Damn, I didn't even spell "coffee" right.

I guess that's possible, but is there anything to indicate that he had problems using his hands in the early years? (I just assumed that he learned to control them like he relearned how to walk, etc.)


To the contrary, he dug the tunnels himself, but that was with a specially made Ixian tool. He also continued the BG arm and hand exercises until the end. If his early Journals were actually written, I'd assume that would be a job for Farad'n. He was his official scibe.

Also, would the Ixians have had the thought-recorders at the beginning of his reign, or would such devices have been something they developed in response to his requests/orders?


I'm sure the Ixians were way more advanced than they let the public know. The stuff they sold, while skirting the proscriptions of the Butlerian Jihad, were probably toys compared to what they didn't sell.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Jun 2008 13:01

SandChigger wrote:HBJ, that's a point. But all that forbidden Ixian tech and the journals themselves would have required a fair Fish Speaker contingent to protect...so there goes any hope of concealment.


Yeah, I agree. I wasn't really seriously suggesting that. In the Dar-es-Balat inscription, Leto refers to the chamber as his "Ixian storehouse", which pretty much implies that it was constructed using Ixian magickery. As opposed to being, say, a cave with a no-field generator sitting on the floor. :)

HBJ

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Postby orald » 17 Jun 2008 17:39

I think you might need special lining all round for a protected no-room anyway, not just dumping a generator. FWIW.

Freak wrote:My answer would be yes.

God Leto was the mentat of mentats. A mentat with an ability so great he was godly.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2008 17:45

orald wrote:I think you might need special lining all round for a protected no-room anyway, not just dumping a generator. FWIW.

Freak wrote:My answer would be yes.

God Leto was the mentat of mentats. A mentat with an ability so great he was godly.


You'd blow him if he had a penis, wouldn't you? :P
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Postby orald » 17 Jun 2008 17:55

Yea, laugh, you damn Tleilaxu sligsons! :x
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Jun 2008 20:51

orald wrote:I think you might need special lining all round for a protected no-room anyway, not just dumping a generator. FWIW.


Indeed.

HBJ