Us VS Them

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lotek
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby lotek » 14 Oct 2010 11:10

Sand chigger has proven his capacity for logical and impartial reasoning, so he can sidetrack as much as he wants.

You, RbP, on the contrary, have still everything to prove: it's up to you to stay the eternal troll(which is fine by me I'll just ignoreList you when I'm bored of your cat antics, pun intended), or decide to step up and actually really answer a question asked directly.

Going on about how badly you're treated every time you try is bollocks, everyone here has shown they can drop the mocking mask and discuss in an orderly manner.
You can't create a situation and then use it to play the victim, well you can but it shows.

Which brings me to the ignoreList thingy.

So now your call !

nb:
are you a member of the KJASF ? Would you pe prepared to tell us more about this mysterious group ? Have you direct contact with tehKJA ?
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 11:12

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:All directed at Chiggie ...

Here's the problem, moron: we all see the same message board. So it really doesn't matter who your ancient "funny" cat pictures were directed at — all of us here have to wade through them.

Christsakes, Anderhack really does attract complete dumbasses, doesn't he? It's amazing how little you people actually think.


Just as you have to wade through all the dumb ass messages that Chiggie directed to me - there was a 1 to 1 correlation there. I found it really annoying, responded, then foe'd his dumb ass. So you really wont have to worry about that anymore either.
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby TheDukester » 14 Oct 2010 11:15

Whatever.

Redbugpest, you stand accused of being a poseur, an asshat, and a stealer of library books. How do you respond?
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby Tleszer » 14 Oct 2010 11:30

TheDukester wrote:Whatever.

Redbugpest, you stand accused of being a poseur, an asshat, and a stealer of library books. How do you respond?


rbp: "I did nothing wrong. I was just showing the chig that I love the way he talks piggy to me. :romance-hearteyes: Also, this post is full of fail since no one wants to debate anything with me. Is "debate" the right word for someone who likes lolcat fail pics?"

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 11:36

TheDukester wrote:Whatever.

Redbugpest, you stand accused of being a poseur, an asshat, and a stealer of library books. How do you respond?


I might be an asshat from time to time, but I always return my library books....
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby Tycho » 14 Oct 2010 13:28

It cracks me up how Frank Herbert's Duniverse is a saga of political machinations, ancient feuds, deception, manipulation, jihad, prophecy, dogma and monopolism... while the online Dune community is a saga of political machinations, ancient feuds, deception, manipulation, jihad, prophecy, dogma and monopolism. Bravo!

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby SandChigger » 14 Oct 2010 13:49

redbugpest wrote:then foe'd his dumb ass

I can tell Dune from McDune and I'm a dumb ass? :lol:

Betcha piggy peeks! :P
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby Serkanner » 14 Oct 2010 14:11

redbugpest wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:Redbugpest, you're so reluctant to post any evidence that KJA is as good a writer as you say he is, so I have to assume you're a shill, and therefore a fraud and a jerk. So, you stand accused of being a fraud and a jerk and a porky hamwallet with no real passion or taste in literature. How do you respond? Surprise me.



Since his being a good or poor writer is subjective to the opinion of the person reading, there is no way that I am aware of to prove or disprove it to you.


Wrong! People on this board have shown numerous times KJA is objectively a bad writer. The fact that he has published a gazillion books doesn't say anything more about his quality as a writer than that lots of people are not expecting better from him. Any decent literature teacher will shoot holes as big as KJA's ego in his work only reading every first page of his crap. TASTE in literature is subjective and personal ... quality can be proven.
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby Omphalos » 14 Oct 2010 14:37

Typical troll tactic, Serkanner. He ignores the clear weight of evidence merely because there is a subjective element to it. Slippery, slick responses like that bely what you are saying now, Pesty; that you are here to cooperate and participate. Form an opinion and back it up with reasoning, if you can.

Here's what a real opinion looks like. Ever have one of your own before? Let's hear it, unless youre too scared to actually put your feelings out there in public.

http://www.omphalosbookreviews.com/inde ... r/kevin/NA

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby SandChigger » 14 Oct 2010 14:49

redbugpest wrote:Since his being a good or poor writer is subjective to the opinion of the person reading, there is no way that I am aware of to prove or disprove it to you.

:roll: There would seem to be a lot that Pestie isn't aware of. Oink.

The only real facts as to his writing lay in the number of books published, and his ability to support himself entirely as a writer. That would lead someone to believe that he has a fair amount of popularity. Of course, these facts cannot be used to satisfy the Good / Bad component you refer to above.

Quite. So Pestie has finally learned a lesson that still eludes ER RN Byron Merritt. Popularity does not guarantee quality, as exemplified by McDonalds. Hence "McDune". Oink.

What i do not do is browbeat anyone who may not agree with my views on a book.

Holy Maker, what a credit to his species... whatever that is. Oink.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby SandRider » 14 Oct 2010 15:02

Brian wrote:Since his being a good or poor writer is subjective to the opinion of the person reading,


Serk just beat me to it, but yes : no, quality is not subjective; an individual may still enjoy reading a poor writer,
for whatever reason ... compared to Elmer Kelton, Louis L'Amour was less than a dimenovel hack, but I still got some
pleasure out of his extremely simple books ... to put him in the same league as Kelton as a writer, tho, is as silly
as allowing Keith to write books with an "X of Dune" title and shelving them next to Frank's books, and claiming they are
of the same class, and in line with Frank's vision ...

and I still don't think you understand our major point of contention - that the McDune books by Spanky & Brian Pherbert
are being promoted as "Dune Canon" and "directly based on the Notes/Outline of Frank Herbert"; shitty, juvenile writing
aside, all the McDune books offer a multitude of direct contradictions to the fictional universe Frank built .... not
just in basic facts {Paul was born in the national archives}, but in overall theme (the uberKH & "oracle" weren't
possible after LetoII)(... unless .... you introduce an apologist device and state that the original Dune trilogy was actually
only Irulan's propaganda .... calling into question the canonical veracity of the Fourth book ... and also then the last two
Frank wrote ... but then ... McDune7 is based on Frank's Outline ... so ... hell, Keith just ate his own tail ...)

you still don't seem to understand there are several, separate issues here:

1) tehKJA is a hack writer (StarWars, X-Files, Captain Nemo, Superman/Batman, his own "original" novels that are devoid
of any original thought, merely an amalgamation of every scifi cliche gone before ...)

2) tehKJA has produced a string of horribly hack-written books with "Dune" on the cover ...

3) not only are these books in and of themselves cheap pulp trash (like all his other work) they are in direct
contradiction with the original works ...

4) the Official Corporate Dune propaganda machine promotes these books as "Dune canon" ....

5) the Official Corporate Dune propaganda machine continues to attempt to legitimize these books by constantly
referring to "The Notes" ....which, if they exist at all, were clearly not followed ... see #3 ...
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 15:14

Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:Redbugpest, you're so reluctant to post any evidence that KJA is as good a writer as you say he is, so I have to assume you're a shill, and therefore a fraud and a jerk. So, you stand accused of being a fraud and a jerk and a porky hamwallet with no real passion or taste in literature. How do you respond? Surprise me.



Since his being a good or poor writer is subjective to the opinion of the person reading, there is no way that I am aware of to prove or disprove it to you.


Wrong! People on this board have shown numerous times KJA is objectively a bad writer. The fact that he has published a gazillion books doesn't say anything more about his quality as a writer than that lots of people are not expecting better from him. Any decent literature teacher will shoot holes as big as KJA's ego in his work only reading every first page of his crap. TASTE in literature is subjective and personal ... quality can be proven.


So how do you prove it? What are the metrics you are applying?
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby SandRider » 14 Oct 2010 17:13

for me, one of the first (and only) definitions of a "novel" is how the protagonist changes during the course of the work ...

f'instance, The Red Badge of Courage - the kid starts out with bluster and self-doubt; under fire, he turns tail and
runs; while separated from his regiment, he has a self-evaluating moment, and tries to find his unit - but he finds another
part of the battle instead, and rushes in with great bravery; he ends the novel as a confident and respected veteran - all
this takes place over one day ...

in Dune Messiah, Paul begins as the Emperor of the Known Universe ... he ends blind, walking into the desert alone ...

in all of Keith's books, the characters are no different at the end that they were at the beginning ... this is because he
is not writing actual "novels", but serial pulp fiction ... his characters learn nothing from the hoops he makes them jump
thru, they do not grow and evolve like real human beings ... and all his characters conform to one or two "stereotypical"
behaviors (the villians "cackle sadistically", the heroines "climax thunderously" &etc); this is so that 1) the idiot readers
don't get confused and 2) the idiot dictahacker doesn't get confused ...

Keith (and I suspect Brian, too, if any of the McDune words are actually his) constantly overuse adjectives, silly adjectives,
to the point of sounding like junior-high Engish Lit short stories ... this is widely and profusely addressed elsewhere on this
forum, particularly in some threads with your name on them ...

as the SandChigger has pointed out, over and over, Keith's science is bad; for someone claiming to have a degree in
astrophysics and claiming to be a "science fiction writer", you'd expect him to understand things like light-speed and
axial tilt of planets ....

the constant repetition of plot elements, some re-capping things that just occurred, is annoying at best;
this is done so that 1) the idiot readers don't get confused, and 2) the idiot dictahacker doesn't get confused ...
and since every "chapter" is only a few pages long, and half of each "chapter" is devoted to re-telling what was
just told in the last "chapter", this really amounts to nothing more that word-count padding ... a typical ploy
used by paid-by-the-word hacks of yore ...

and that's just off the top of my head, without really giving it much thought ....
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how to fully interact with people.
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby TheDukester » 14 Oct 2010 17:26

:clap: :dance: :clap: :cylon101:

School is in session, Pestie! Are you listening?
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby merkin muffley » 14 Oct 2010 17:34

How's that for metrics, bitch?
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby Serkanner » 15 Oct 2010 06:10

redbugpest wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:Redbugpest, you're so reluctant to post any evidence that KJA is as good a writer as you say he is, so I have to assume you're a shill, and therefore a fraud and a jerk. So, you stand accused of being a fraud and a jerk and a porky hamwallet with no real passion or taste in literature. How do you respond? Surprise me.



Since his being a good or poor writer is subjective to the opinion of the person reading, there is no way that I am aware of to prove or disprove it to you.


Wrong! People on this board have shown numerous times KJA is objectively a bad writer. The fact that he has published a gazillion books doesn't say anything more about his quality as a writer than that lots of people are not expecting better from him. Any decent literature teacher will shoot holes as big as KJA's ego in his work only reading every first page of his crap. TASTE in literature is subjective and personal ... quality can be proven.


So how do you prove it? What are the metrics you are applying?



Sandrider has just shown you.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 11:16

SandRider wrote:for me, one of the first (and only) definitions of a "novel" is how the protagonist changes during the course of the work ...

f'instance, The Red Badge of Courage - the kid starts out with bluster and self-doubt; under fire, he turns tail and
runs; while separated from his regiment, he has a self-evaluating moment, and tries to find his unit - but he finds another
part of the battle instead, and rushes in with great bravery; he ends the novel as a confident and respected veteran - all
this takes place over one day ...

in Dune Messiah, Paul begins as the Emperor of the Known Universe ... he ends blind, walking into the desert alone ...

in all of Keith's books, the characters are no different at the end that they were at the beginning ... this is because he
is not writing actual "novels", but serial pulp fiction ... his characters learn nothing from the hoops he makes them jump
thru, they do not grow and evolve like real human beings ... and all his characters conform to one or two "stereotypical"
behaviors (the villians "cackle sadistically", the heroines "climax thunderously" &etc); this is so that 1) the idiot readers
don't get confused and 2) the idiot dictahacker doesn't get confused ...


That is not true, his characters do go through transitional changes, and they tend to leave the stories changed in some ways. Vorian Artreides goes through a dramatic change in the Legends series - abandoning his father and Omnius to go and lead the effort to destroy them because of things he learned, Jora'h in the Saga series transforms from a spoiled heir to the throne into a real leader after the revelation of the lies he had held as truth about the Ildarian / human relationship.

The rest is writing style - his stories do have more of a pulp feel, probably because of the influences of what he liked to read.

SandRider wrote:Keith (and I suspect Brian, too, if any of the McDune words are actually his) constantly overuse adjectives, silly adjectives,
to the point of sounding like junior-high Engish Lit short stories ... this is widely and profusely addressed elsewhere on this
forum, particularly in some threads with your name on them ...

as the SandChigger has pointed out, over and over, Keith's science is bad; for someone claiming to have a degree in
astrophysics and claiming to be a "science fiction writer", you'd expect him to understand things like light-speed and
axial tilt of planets ....


Could you measure this - yes. But... :)
In Sci Fi, the science is often changed / neglected / ignored for the sake of the story. Doing the opposite can often be just as annoying - Have you ever read David Webber's Honor Harrington series? Spends more time explaining how the tech works that telling the story! I cannot stand any of his books.


SandRider wrote:the constant repetition of plot elements, some re-capping things that just occurred, is annoying at best;
this is done so that 1) the idiot readers don't get confused, and 2) the idiot dictahacker doesn't get confused ...
and since every "chapter" is only a few pages long, and half of each "chapter" is devoted to re-telling what was
just told in the last "chapter", this really amounts to nothing more that word-count padding ... a typical ploy
used by paid-by-the-word hacks of yore ...

and that's just off the top of my head, without really giving it much thought ....


But none of this constitutes a real metric that is measurable - it is still in the domain of personal opinion. It his particular style of writing.
KJA and BH have both acknowledged in interviews that they do not write like FH. As to where their books fit into the universe, I have always said that there was a division in my mind as well .

Can you see now, why I feel it is a subjective thing? Reading any kind of literature is a personal experience for each of us. Some of us have a more diverse palate that others when it comes to reading.

As for the particulars of new vs old - like i said before, I don't think the time for that conversation is ripe yet. I would rather focus my time really plumbing the depths the originals. I do have to say that i found your response to be well though out, and appreciate the more serious manner in which you approached this conversation.
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby TheDukester » 15 Oct 2010 12:46

redbugpest wrote:Have you ever read David Webber's Honor Harrington series? Spends more time explaining how the tech works that telling the story! I cannot stand any of his books.

Well, gosh darn it to heck! Then why do you read them?

Woot! I wanted to see what it felt like to use the All-Time Number One Preek Argument.

:dance: :lol: :clap:

And ... wait a minute here ...

Yes, I actually just got dumber. Sigh.

:doh:
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby Omphalos » 15 Oct 2010 14:00

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Have you ever read David Webber's Honor Harrington series? Spends more time explaining how the tech works that telling the story! I cannot stand any of his books.

Well, gosh darn it to heck! Then why do you read them?

Woot! I wanted to see what it felt like to use the All-Time Number One Preek Argument.

:dance: :lol: :clap:

And ... wait a minute here ...

Yes, I actually just got dumber. Sigh.

:doh:


Dumb enough to write a Dune prequel?

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 14:22

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Have you ever read David Webber's Honor Harrington series? Spends more time explaining how the tech works that telling the story! I cannot stand any of his books.

Well, gosh darn it to heck! Then why do you read them?

Woot! I wanted to see what it felt like to use the All-Time Number One Preek Argument.

:dance: :lol: :clap:

And ... wait a minute here ...

Yes, I actually just got dumber. Sigh.

:doh:


Uhhhh - I don't - Tried to read a couple, found them to be the same, and walked away from them. If I don't like it, I don't read it. Same with the add on books to Foundation - not even close to sounding like Asimov, so I don't bother with them.

Nice try, though...
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby TheDukester » 15 Oct 2010 15:34

Suuuuuuuuuure.

Whatever you say, Brian.

I guess you really didn't mean to type "I cannot stand any of his books," did you?

What you really meant was "I looked at two and that was it."

Got it. Whatever you say, big guy.
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby DuneFishUK » 15 Oct 2010 17:23

redbugpest wrote:
SandRider wrote:the constant repetition of plot elements, some re-capping things that just occurred, is annoying at best;
this is done so that 1) the idiot readers don't get confused, and 2) the idiot dictahacker doesn't get confused ...
and since every "chapter" is only a few pages long, and half of each "chapter" is devoted to re-telling what was
just told in the last "chapter", this really amounts to nothing more that word-count padding ... a typical ploy
used by paid-by-the-word hacks of yore ...

and that's just off the top of my head, without really giving it much thought ....


But none of this constitutes a real metric that is measurable - it is still in the domain of personal opinion. It his particular style of writing.
KJA and BH have both acknowledged in interviews that they do not write like FH.


FH, and almost every other great writer had an editor who read his manuscripts and made suggestions for changes.

Repeating the fact that Alia is a reverend mother and not a normal child four times in as many pages is not stylistic. It's badly edited.

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby SandChigger » 15 Oct 2010 22:20

Let's see... KJA edits when his "writing" comes back from the typist (snicker), then Jabecca edits it again for him when it's all done, then a stupid copy-editor at the publisher edits it, and then KJA "goes over" the final galley proofs while watching a DVD...

HEY! How can you say his stuff is badly edited?! :angry-screaming:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: Us VS Them

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Oct 2010 03:20

KJA's editing is obviously more like him looking for type errors and editing out comments between him and BH - stuff like "hey Kev, shouldn't they know the robots are nearby?" - other than that his editing is nothing.
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Re: Us VS Them

Postby TheDukester » 16 Oct 2010 04:20

Right. We call those "line editors" in the publishing/newspaper business (some publications probably use other terms), and they are an important part of a good editing process.

But that's all Becky, Keith, and the idiots at TOR are doing. They are catching the occasional error in punctuation, a run-on sentence here and there, and that sort of thing. And doing so while watching DVDs; let's not forget that.

The problem: they are not editing for substance, which is the other side of the editing coin. No one is challenging Keith about his repetitiveness, lack of character development, weak plotting, over-use of adjectives, ridiculous reliance on deus ex machina, and so on. No one is trying to make the story better.

And, given the subject matter — the Dune setting, as created by FH — that is just completely fucking sad.
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