Shields, How slow is slow?

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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 02 Oct 2008 14:39

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the shield is repeled and stretches from objects on the inside.

:roll:

What happens if you're wearing a shield and you throw something?

These things keep me up at night...

Or throw up? That could get messy.


You vomit very slowly...


:lol: I don't think the same rules apply from the inside.

So you could spit on a guy and make it stick to his shield to cloud his vision.


:?
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Postby Laphtiya » 02 Oct 2008 14:56

Only if you spat fast enough :lol: but sneezing would work no problem!


On a serious note, lets say something falls on you while wearing a shield. You are trapped under say this rather large rock. You would be protected from the initial impact, but what about when your crushed under it? Now that its not moving would it pass through the shield and crush you?

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Postby Drunken Idaho » 02 Oct 2008 15:20

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the shield is repeled and stretches from objects on the inside.

:roll:

What happens if you're wearing a shield and you throw something?

These things keep me up at night...

Or throw up? That could get messy.


You vomit very slowly...


:lol: I don't think the same rules apply from the inside.

So you could spit on a guy and make it stick to his shield to cloud his vision.


Waste of moisture, and a compliment to your opponent.

Then again, anyone who would be that concerned about their body's water wouldn't be wearing a shield.

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Postby Nekhrun » 02 Oct 2008 16:29

Drunken Idaho wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the shield is repeled and stretches from objects on the inside.

:roll:

What happens if you're wearing a shield and you throw something?

These things keep me up at night...

Or throw up? That could get messy.


You vomit very slowly...


:lol: I don't think the same rules apply from the inside.

So you could spit on a guy and make it stick to his shield to cloud his vision.


Waste of moisture, and a compliment to your opponent.

Then again, anyone who would be that concerned about their body's water wouldn't be wearing a shield.

I figured it wouldn't be a Fremen thing anyway.

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Postby Rakis » 02 Oct 2008 23:19

What about breathing with a shield? If air is not an issue coming out or in, what about poisonned gas? Or the heat of a fireball ? :|
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Postby Laphtiya » 03 Oct 2008 02:38

Rakis wrote:What about breathing with a shield? If air is not an issue coming out or in, what about poisonned gas? Or the heat of a fireball ? :|


I thought this was explained why the Barron always has a shield on low settings. The air inside grows stale, which suggests that gasses have trouble passing through the shield. So I would imagine while you would die eventually from poison gas, you would have some protection for a short time.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby jakoye » 30 Jun 2012 08:56

Here's my problem with shields: why were Fremen able to so easily defeat shielded Sardaukar? Sure, I could see how, in the desert, where Sardaukar can't wear shields for fear of attracting worms, the Fremen would have the advantage because they're not "shield-trained". But in Arrakeen and areas behind the Shield Wall where there are no worms, wouldn't the Fremen be at a distinct disadvantage fighting any shielded opponent since they're not used to applying the "slow" killing blow? I suppose the Sardaukar would also be handicapped because they're not used to delivering a fast killing blow, but the Fremen should be worse off, I would think, because they'd just be uselessly hacking away at their opponents' shields, leaving themselves open to even a slow attack.

Yes, things like this keep me up at night! :)

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby Freakzilla » 01 Jul 2012 10:13

jakoye wrote:Here's my problem with shields: why were Fremen able to so easily defeat shielded Sardaukar? Sure, I could see how, in the desert, where Sardaukar can't wear shields for fear of attracting worms, the Fremen would have the advantage because they're not "shield-trained". But in Arrakeen and areas behind the Shield Wall where there are no worms, wouldn't the Fremen be at a distinct disadvantage fighting any shielded opponent since they're not used to applying the "slow" killing blow? I suppose the Sardaukar would also be handicapped because they're not used to delivering a fast killing blow, but the Fremen should be worse off, I would think, because they'd just be uselessly hacking away at their opponents' shields, leaving themselves open to even a slow attack.

Yes, things like this keep me up at night! :)


They timed the attack on Arrakeen to coincide with a sand storm which shorted out all the shields in the basin.
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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby jakoye » 01 Jul 2012 10:24

Freakzilla wrote:They timed the attack on Arrakeen to coincide with a sand storm which shorted out all the shields in the basin.


Yes, for the final battle, but I'm talking about the Fremen defeating Sardaukar during the initial Harkonnen attack. Such as when the Fremen that Hawat is negotiating with after the attack mentions how the Fremen had taken an artillery piece from the Sardaukar and had lost two men as compared to a hundred Sardaukar. That always seemed like a completely ridiculous ratio to me. I can believe that the Fremen were superior swordsmen to Sardaukar, especially when shields weren't involved, but when shields *were* involved, a 50 to 1 kill ratio for the Fremen seems... extreme. :) I suppose you could say that perhaps shields weren't involved, but the artillery pieces were clearly shown as being used near Arrakeen on the Shield Wall, so I would think any soldiers manning the pieces would be shielded.

Just a nitpick of mine. Doesn't really matter in the end. I just want to see the Sardaukar depicted well in film.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby trang » 01 Jul 2012 12:26

more knife fighters that swordsman. The fremen were trained in Prana Bindu as well, so they had all kinds of advantages. I would think within Prana bindu training, moving blade thru shield was a technique they learned.
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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby jakoye » 01 Jul 2012 15:07

trang wrote:more knife fighters that swordsman. The fremen were trained in Prana Bindu as well, so they had all kinds of advantages. I would think within Prana bindu training, moving blade thru shield was a technique they learned.


I don't think they were trained in Prana Bindu. Where do you get that from? I don't see how Paul and Jessica could teach more than a handful the intricacies of Prana-Bindu, as I understood it (the control of every muscle/nerve in the body).

What they DID teach the Fremen was the "weirding way", which was the Bene Gesserit method of unarmed combat. That, I could see, being taught to multitudes of people. But not very fine nerve/muscle control.

Also, it's one thing to be newly-trained in how to fight someone who's wearing a shield. It's entirely another thing to be trained like that FROM DAY ONE. This is why I can buy the Sardaukar being so easily overcome by the Fremen when the battles took place without the Sardaukar having the benefits of their shields. But when they *did* have their shields, I would think the playing field would be a lot more even.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby D Pope » 01 Jul 2012 15:42

When were the Fremen fighting shielded Sardaukar? The very environment on Dune (worms, static, sand & dust) almost nullified their use.
For example, when Pardot saved the Fremen children there was no mention of shields.

edit; Great questions btw, keep 'em coming!
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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby Freakzilla » 01 Jul 2012 16:55

As I understand it, personal shields were generally not used on Arrakis except under special circumstances, such as by the ruling elite, inside the shield wall (The Baron turns on his shield after the Duke's gas attack, Duncan defending Paul and Jessica at the Botanical Testing Station, etc.).

And of course, the Sardaukar would have been at a disadvantage fighting Fremen while unshielded ala Paul vs. Jamis.
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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby jakoye » 03 Jul 2012 05:35

D Pope wrote:When were the Fremen fighting shielded Sardaukar? The very environment on Dune (worms, static, sand & dust) almost nullified their use.
For example, when Pardot saved the Fremen children there was no mention of shields.

edit; Great questions btw, keep 'em coming!


There are no specific scenes in the book where Sardaukar fight Fremen while shielded (the Sardaukar use suspensors to capture Hawat, but it's not clear if they're using shields there). I was just speculating that the Sardaukar fighting in the Arrakeen basin, where there are no worms and no storms, would have been using shields. It might not be true, but the impression I got was that shields were used anywhere they could be used.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby Laphtiya » 05 Jul 2012 07:48

jakoye wrote:Here's my problem with shields: why were Fremen able to so easily defeat shielded Sardaukar? Sure, I could see how, in the desert, where Sardaukar can't wear shields for fear of attracting worms, the Fremen would have the advantage because they're not "shield-trained". But in Arrakeen and areas behind the Shield Wall where there are no worms, wouldn't the Fremen be at a distinct disadvantage fighting any shielded opponent since they're not used to applying the "slow" killing blow? I suppose the Sardaukar would also be handicapped because they're not used to delivering a fast killing blow, but the Fremen should be worse off, I would think, because they'd just be uselessly hacking away at their opponents' shields, leaving themselves open to even a slow attack.

Yes, things like this keep me up at night! :)


Well the static caused by the storm knocked out all shields this is why they were able to defeat them, then I assume that in this time anyway Paul had trained them how to combat against Shields.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby jakoye » 05 Jul 2012 08:13

Laphtiya wrote:Well the static caused by the storm knocked out all shields this is why they were able to defeat them, then I assume that in this time anyway Paul had trained them how to combat against Shields.


Yes, out in the deep desert, Sardaukar/Harkonnen won't wear shields and thus will be at a disadvantage. But in the basins and pans behind the Shield Wall, storms are much-reduced in their impact, thus shields can and would be worn there (and remember, I'm not talking about the final battle where Paul nukes the Shield Wall and allows the "mother of all storms" into the Arrakeen basin, thus destroying the shields around the Emperor's ships and any personal shields his forces would've worn. I'm talking about the Harkonnen/Sardaukar attack on the Atreides on Arrakis and specifically the claim by the Fremen Thufir was talking to that the Fremen captured an artillery piece from the Sardaukar while killing a hundred and only losing two of their own. Although another thought just occurred to me... maybe the Fremen was exagerrating/bragging?! Doesn't seem likely, since Fremen are supposed to be super-honest, but maybe his information on the battle was wrong?).

We had talked earlier about how there are no examples of shielded Sardaukar/Harkonnen fighting against Fremen, but this is actually shown in the Appendix on Pardot Kynes where he runs into six Harkonnen attacking 3 Fremen youths, with the Harkonnens being shielded. Granted these are just Fremen youth, but the implication is that Kynes saves the Fremen from certain death, which would make sense because Fremen would be inexperienced at fighting shielded opponents.

Yes, Paul could have trained the Fremen to fight shielded opponents in the 3 years of the rebellion, but one of my points earlier was that the Sardaukar would still have an advantage in shielded combat even if this was so, as they had been trained their entire lives to fight shielded opponents. As well, once the jihad goes off Arrakis, Fremen no longer have the advantage of storms and worms and such and would be fighting shielded opponents on every planet they attempted to conquer.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby jakoye » 05 Jul 2012 08:18

D Pope wrote:When were the Fremen fighting shielded Sardaukar? The very environment on Dune (worms, static, sand & dust) almost nullified their use.
For example, when Pardot saved the Fremen children there was no mention of shields.

edit; Great questions btw, keep 'em coming!


D Pope, I just re-read the Appendix on Pardot Kynes and it DOES indicate that the Harkonnens were shielded:

He was exploring the Arrakis landscape in a one-man groundcar one hot afternoon when he stumbled onto a deplorably common scene. Six Harkonnen bravos, shielded and fully-armed, had trapped three Fremen youths in the open behind the Shield Wall near the village of Windsack.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby D Pope » 05 Jul 2012 13:30

Outstanding!
:clap: :D
"To save one from a mistake is the gift of paradise"

The idea that oppressive conditions toughen folks is no newer than the difficulties faced by people unaccustomed to manual labor.
By this scale, the Fremen were simply better than the Sardaukar. The numbers do seem overly impressive, but remember that this
all happens on Dune, home turf. Perhaps other factors added up to a Fremen advantage heat, scarcity of water, color/intensity of
the sun, omnipresent dust, and the level of commitment. (A Fremen suicide took out a loaded troop carrier, what was the ratio of
death there?) Don't forget that Sardaukar are unaccustomed to dealing with equal/superior foe, it's no small thing to get surprised
by what you thought would be an easy victory.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby jakoye » 05 Jul 2012 14:17

D Pope wrote:Outstanding!
:clap: :D
"To save one from a mistake is the gift of paradise"

The idea that oppressive conditions toughen folks is no newer than the difficulties faced by people unaccustomed to manual labor.
By this scale, the Fremen were simply better than the Sardaukar. The numbers do seem overly impressive, but remember that this
all happens on Dune, home turf. Perhaps other factors added up to a Fremen advantage heat, scarcity of water, color/intensity of
the sun, omnipresent dust, and the level of commitment. (A Fremen suicide took out a loaded troop carrier, what was the ratio of
death there?) Don't forget that Sardaukar are unaccustomed to dealing with equal/superior foe, it's no small thing to get surprised
by what you thought would be an easy victory.


Good points, all.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jul 2012 14:21

Plus, the Fremen were in a religious frenzy and trying to break their ages old bondage.
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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby georgiedenbro » 16 Sep 2014 11:14

Frank almost never gets into details about Fremen combat tactics, but in the case of shielded Sardaukar we can imagine that the Fremen might have gotten creative; using sand in various ways, using stealth, hit and run tactics. I doubt that a group of Fremen ever directly confronted a group of shielded Sardaukar in open martial combat. During the first battle at Arrakeen, the Fremen mention a huge kill/loss ratio agains the Sardaukar, but they never say in what way the deaths were achieved. It could have been one-at-a-time stealth kills for all we know, small traps, other things.

And recall that the Fremen were at that point in no way trained by Paul or Jessica. Later on they were trained in the weirding way, which may or may not include elements of prana-bindu.
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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby MuaB'Beep » 16 Sep 2014 12:26

georgiedenbro wrote:Frank almost never gets into details about Fremen combat tactics, but in the case of shielded Sardaukar we can imagine that the Fremen might have gotten creative; using sand in various ways, using stealth, hit and run tactics. I doubt that a group of Fremen ever directly confronted a group of shielded Sardaukar in open martial combat. During the first battle at Arrakeen, the Fremen mention a huge kill/loss ratio agains the Sardaukar, but they never say in what way the deaths were achieved. It could have been one-at-a-time stealth kills for all we know, small traps, other things.

And recall that the Fremen were at that point in no way trained by Paul or Jessica. Later on they were trained in the weirding way, which may or may not include elements of prana-bindu.


I would like to notice that aside from lasguns in the enviroment where using shield usually means getting the worm bite Your ass fremen were very well equipped. They used AA rockets, artillery and firearms not as secondary arms - but as equal to their close quarters fighting skills. Something the sardaukars would never think off - element of suprise certainly that made them victorious. Fremen knew about the shield - they used it during the battle of Arrakeen, but any other force used shield to the point of being their second nature. Fremen won because they were superior fighters and combination of elements completely foreign to off-worlders proved devastating for both harkonnen and sardaukar troops.

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Re: Shields, How slow is slow?

Postby D Pope » 17 Sep 2014 19:03

Desert Power
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos


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