POLITICS of Dune, and the politics of our times...

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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2008 12:12

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:Dune didn't change my political or religious views so much as enhance them and open my eyes to viewing them from different angles. I think I have a fuller understanding of my beliefs because of Dune.

responding to the liberal as a child, then going conservative I remember a great little line:

anyone who isn't a Liberal by the time they're 20 has no heart. Anyone who isn't a Conservative by the time they're 30 has no brain.
:D

i'm heartless, but at least i'm smart :D


I guess I can't call that wrong till I'm 30 - man are you gonna hear from me in 6 or 7 years! :wink:


It'll probably be in Arabic or Chinese, if you haven't been sent off to a work camp. Be sure to thank the liberals then.

:P
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2008 12:24

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:Dune didn't change my political or religious views so much as enhance them and open my eyes to viewing them from different angles. I think I have a fuller understanding of my beliefs because of Dune.

responding to the liberal as a child, then going conservative I remember a great little line:

anyone who isn't a Liberal by the time they're 20 has no heart. Anyone who isn't a Conservative by the time they're 30 has no brain.
:D

i'm heartless, but at least i'm smart :D


I guess I can't call that wrong till I'm 30 - man are you gonna hear from me in 6 or 7 years! :wink:


It'll probably be in Arabic or Chinese, if you haven't been sent off to a work camp. Be sure to thank the liberals then.

:P


Hindi or Chinese are my personal bets :wink: , and I think I'll actually lay that one at the feet of the Conservative capitalists who's system is working so well right now that it needs a 700 Billion dollar commu-err capitalist boost! :P :lol:

If the western empire falls it'll be because of economics not because some liberals got into power and didnt spend enough time shooting at terrorists.
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Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2008 12:27

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Hindi or Chinese are my personal bets :wink: , and I think I'll actually lay that one at the feet of the Conservative capitalists who's system is working so well right now that it needs a 700 Billion dollar commu-err capitalist boost! :P :lol:


I'm sure the fact that we've had a Democratic Congress for the past two years had nothing to do with it, huh?

:wink:
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Postby GamePlayer » 08 Oct 2008 13:11

Baraka Bryan wrote:anyone who isn't a Liberal by the time they're 20 has no heart. Anyone who isn't a Conservative by the time they're 30 has no brain.
:D

i'm heartless, but at least i'm smart :D


This definitely explains why all the old folks are such voting zombies. I don't think my parents have actually put any thought into voting for about 30 years. They just look for the color blue and then sign. I think a pellet falls out afterward :)

I wonder, is there a link between age and voting? Someone had to have done some government funded study on this. :lol:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2008 13:26

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Hindi or Chinese are my personal bets :wink: , and I think I'll actually lay that one at the feet of the Conservative capitalists who's system is working so well right now that it needs a 700 Billion dollar commu-err capitalist boost! :P :lol:


I'm sure the fact that we've had a Democratic Congress for the past two years had nothing to do with it, huh?

:wink:


I actually don't follow the inner working of the US gov to closely, sometimes even I have to take a grain of salt with my own words. :?

Here's the meat of what I was attempting (poorly) to say:

I think the fall of the west will hinge on economics if/when it happens, and in this particular case the problem came IMO from too little regulation of the private sector, which is (stereo)typically a trademark of Conservative governement and Conservaive thinking.
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Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2008 13:37

Maybe, but I think it's a thin line between too little and too much regulation.

I'm really tired of the finger pointing and just want it fixed.

For starters, I think "earmarks" or "pork barrel" spending should be outlawed. When my wife asks me to go to the grocery store for her, I don't say, "Only if I can buy a couple of cases of beer for my friends." That's just wrong.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2008 13:49

Freakzilla wrote:Maybe, but I think it's a thin line between too little and too much regulation.

I'm really tired of the finger pointing and just want it fixed.

For starters, I think "earmarks" or "pork barrel" spending should be outlawed. When my wife asks me to go to the grocery store for her, I don't say, "Only if I can buy a couple of cases of beer for my friends." That's just wrong.


Yarr to all of the above, excepting maybe the earmarks/porkbarrel bit because I don't feel well enough informed on what that term means are to have an opinion on it.

I think the line between too little and too much regulation is not just thin, but constantly moving. Different times and different places require different approaches and constant monitoring and shift. This is a case where too little regulation bit everyone on the ass big time, I can think of plenty of examples going the other way too (cough, CCCP, cough).

It's funny how much we actually agree on when we're not arguing about whether conservatives or liberals are better...
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Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2008 13:58

Earmarks are the add-ons they put into bills to get certain Congressmen to vote for it.

For example, in this "bail-out" bill, there were hundreds of millions added on for things like race tracks, wooden arrows, rum makers, wool makers, Hollywood TV and movie producers, etc... The list goes on and on.

The way I see it, it is basically buying votes.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2008 14:03

Freakzilla wrote:Earmarks are the add-ons they put into bills to get certain Congressmen to vote for it.

For example, in this "boil-out" bill, there were hundreds of millions added on for things like race tracks, wooden arrows, rum makers, wool makers, Hollywood TV and movie producers, etc... The list goes on and on.

The way I see it, it is basically buying votes.


So they basically bribe the congress? That should be fucking illegal. Not just "don't do it or you get harsh words aimed at you" illegal - I want "don't do it or go to jail/pay a fine" illegal.

That's one major thing I'd like to see change up here in Canada at least - when members of the government skim money, or commit purgery, or take bribes - all that happens is they loose their jobs. What the fuck is that? If I stole more than 2K from someone it's grand fucking theft and my ass is in hot water with the law. They steal 100s of Ks and have to give a public apology? Fuck I get mad just thinking about it. Throw the assholes in jail I say.
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Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2008 14:16

Some of the pork in the Bailout:

- Two separate tax breaks for film companies that produce movies in the U.S.: The cost, almost $500 million.

- An extension of tax rebates to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands on rum duties: Another $192 million over 10 years.

- Six pages of earmarks to benefit Alaskan fisherman who were victims of the 1989 Exxon Valdez disaster. That break, worth $239 million, is clearly aimed at winning the vote of U.S. Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), who voted against the bailout package last week.

- A $10 million credit to help employers defray the costs of storing the bicycles of their employees who commute to work!

You can't make this stuff up.


http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/1 ... _pork.html

I agree, it's criminal. Allthough I have to add that a lot of the earmarks will help millions of people, but that's not the point.

If those people need help so badly pass a seperate bill for that.
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Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2008 15:54

I think the individual states need more power and the federal less.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2008 15:56

Freakzilla wrote:I think the individual states need more power and the federal less.


That's how we do it up here - as far as I understand it anyways we give the provinces more power and the feds less in comparision to the USA - that could be incorrect though, I just heard that at some point in my school years.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2008 16:05

Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Earmarks are the add-ons they put into bills to get certain Congressmen to vote for it.

For example, in this "boil-out" bill, there were hundreds of millions added on for things like race tracks, wooden arrows, rum makers, wool makers, Hollywood TV and movie producers, etc... The list goes on and on.

The way I see it, it is basically buying votes.


So they basically bribe the congress? That should be fucking illegal. Not just "don't do it or you get harsh words aimed at you" illegal - I want "don't do it or go to jail/pay a fine" illegal.

That's one major thing I'd like to see change up here in Canada at least - when members of the government skim money, or commit purgery, or take bribes - all that happens is they loose their jobs. What the fuck is that? If I stole more than 2K from someone it's grand fucking theft and my ass is in hot water with the law. They steal 100s of Ks and have to give a public apology? Fuck I get mad just thinking about it. Throw the assholes in jail I say.



yeah chretien and martin et al should be in jail right now.


Only if there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that they were personally involved. I'm not interested in scapegoating party leaders to make it look as if justice was done.

Specifics should be for judges and juries to decide, not the public who are just fed bad info through the filter of our inaccurate media.

I agree that that is a good example of a criminal act though, it looked very much like someone should have stood trial.

I think the line between too little and too much regulation is not just thin, but constantly moving

totally agree. i'm a small government guy, but sometimes you need government stepping in to keep things under control. that was the original intent of government.


Yarr - Small gov where/when possible, heavy handed where/when necessary. I like small govs as much as anyone, but I'd hate to see the governement get any smaller in our healthcare and educations systems, didn't really go so well you-know-where. :wink:
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Postby Tyrant » 09 Oct 2008 13:22

Freakzilla wrote: When my wife asks me to go to the grocery store for her, I don't say, "Only if I can buy a couple of cases of beer for my friends." That's just wrong.


i dont want to be your friend anymore :cry: :cry:
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Postby Freakzilla » 09 Oct 2008 13:26

Tyrant wrote:
Freakzilla wrote: When my wife asks me to go to the grocery store for her, I don't say, "Only if I can buy a couple of cases of beer for my friends." That's just wrong.


i dont want to be your friend anymore :cry: :cry:


Hey, don't think I don't WANT to buy beer for my friends.
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Postby GamePlayer » 09 Oct 2008 14:19

A Thing of Eternity wrote:That's how we do it up here - as far as I understand it anyways we give the provinces more power and the feds less in comparision to the USA - that could be incorrect though, I just heard that at some point in my school years.


No, your are correct. Canada is a highly decentralized federation with the provincial premiers holding a great deal of power which would normally be found in the hands of the national government in most other modern democracies. The need for this system is obvious, given Canada's vast territory and scattered population.
Last edited by GamePlayer on 09 Oct 2008 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Oct 2008 14:24

GamePlayer wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:That's how we do it up here - as far as I understand it anyways we give the provinces more power and the feds less in comparision to the USA - that could be incorrect though, I just heard that at some point in my school years.


No, your are correct. Canada is a highly decentralized federation with the provincial premires holding a great deal of power which would normally be found in the hands of the national government in most other modern democracies. The need for this system is obvious, given Canada's vast territory and scattered population.


Oh good, it's nice to know I actually understand something once in a while. :)

Thanks Playa.
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Postby MICAH » 11 Oct 2008 01:28

ok so a thing of eternity is candadian. anyone else? For myself personally the original books showed the correlation between different types of gov, ecology, & religion are the components of society & how they kinda work in certain extremes. they're very intertwined. what i find most interesting is the aspect of the revolutionary aspects. messiah & GeOD were great as far as showing that regardless of how much time passes, the faces change but the archetypes stay the same. i'm reading a book about the revolutiion in bolivia . it critiques the beginings & aftereffects of violent revolution. FH showed that the revolutionaries always turn into the aristocrats. this can be seen very clearly in bolivia's case & it didn't take 2500 years to figure it out either. It seemed like Leto's character was the control. He was tackling many problems at once. The donning of the sandtrout continues the supply of spice And keeps him alive long enough to be the control in a empire that was constantly changing. I know i'm rambling on, but i feel that was the beauty of the orginal books, that is So fundamentally missing from the newer books. A critique of Society as it's own ecosystem. AND Frank didn't have to beat you over the head with it. he did it quite gracefully. anyhow enough of my ranting. I guess in the begining of my post i just wanted to state i think Canada comes closest to nailing how to balance things gov-wise

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Postby TheDukester » 14 Oct 2008 11:19

Baraka Bryan wrote:AToE, gameplayer and myself are all Canadian... as is the dukester i think.

Lawl! Never been called Canadian before. :)

No, I'm Western U.S. ... Nevada, California, and Oregon.
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Postby GamePlayer » 14 Oct 2008 11:47

So this is why my nose was itching :)
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Oct 2008 11:49

MICAH wrote:ok so a thing of eternity is candadian.


I'm a candadian? :wink:
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Postby GamePlayer » 14 Oct 2008 13:03

Well, you are very forthright :)
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Oct 2008 13:18

Go Kanata.

Time to vote today. Wonder who's going to win? :roll:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Oct 2008 13:42

Baraka Bryan wrote:the good guys :D


Even if every party had an equal chance of getting in I know the "good guys" wouldn't make it. Because there are none. :wink:
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Postby SandChigger » 14 Oct 2008 15:48

(Some of the above reminded me of yanking Hyppo's chain by referring to "Canadia". :lol: )
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