• Register
  • Login
  •          

    HERESY ?

    Image
      Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

    HERESY ?

    Postby SandRider » 06 Oct 2008 13:29


    I first set foot on Arrakis in your year of 1967, and was reborn

    my ideas of politics, religion, and literature were profoundly re-formed;
    Dune became the reference point for works of art
    Dune became the prime example of the power of art
    Dune became the vision of what was possible for our humanity

    I came to Arrakis with the Young Master, first-saw the Worm with his eyes
    I wept for the loss of His Father, and fled with Him into the Deep Desert
    With Him, I became Fremen

    I rode the Worm to the Plains of Arrakeen, and shook the Universe
    I gave Water to our Dead in the Great Hall, and cried out His Name

    in your year of 1970, I returned to Dune
    triumphant
    holy
    whole

    I huddled in the streets of Arrakeen
    shielding my own Eyes from the Stone-burner
    I praised Shai-Hulud for the gift of the Children
    and rent my garments as we took Chani's water for the Tribe

    I stood on the bled and watched my Usul disappear into the sands
    never to return

    I pledged my knife to the Son of Muad'dib
    and wept for His Humanity and Sacrifice
    when the God-Leto took the sandtrout

    in your year of 1981, the Chronicler gave to us
    the Ultimate Statement, the Masterpiece of Philosphy

    the Youngest Leto had been transformed
    Dune had been transformed
    the Fremen had been transformed

    the God-emperor fell
    the cycle was complete
    I left Rakis satisfied and fulfilled

    now, My Brothers, I must speak Heresy:

    you have railed against the Heir of the Chronicler
    and his Vile Accomplice
    you have cursed Lord Bryon the Pretender
    for setting Commerce above Art and Vision

    you have accused them of Crimes and Falsehoods
    in the Matter of the Alleged Outlines

    you have cried into the Wind that the Legacy of Dune has been violated

    but I say to you :

    the Chronicler Himself is responsible

    all Tales must come to an End
    all Ideas must run their Course
    without Closure, nothing is Whole

    the Story, the profound Work of Art that changed the Literary World,
    ended when God-Leto returned to the Sand

    for reasons we poor men may never understand
    the Chronicler Himself chose to transform His Art into Franchise

    perhaps He could not bear to leave the Known Universe He had Created
    perhaps it was in fact for reasons of Commerce
    perhaps He truly thought that he had more Important Ideas to convey to Man

    in any case, He Himself set the stage
    He opened the Path for a never-ending, episodic opera

    and that Path could only lead ever Downward ....
    Last edited by SandRider on 27 Oct 2008 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Oct 2008 13:39

    Are you saying FH wrote Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune for no reason other than money?
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Oct 2008 14:12

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Are you saying FH wrote Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune for no reason other than money?



    i've heard it said before:
    Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune were written for the story.
    God Emperor of Dune was written for himself
    and Heretics, Chapterhouse: Dune (and the eventual Dune 7 by FH) were written for the fans of the universe by popular demand.


    I agree, I don't think the last two books were necessary to the overall story but it's nice to see how the GP unfolded.

    It could have ended with CoD but GEoD added so much more depth to the Duniverse, I think.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby TheDukester » 06 Oct 2008 14:18

    Well, I have my answer: it took four posts.

    Four posts before the red, bolded text and the quasi-mysterious "voice" really started to get old.

    Sorry, but I'll pass. I don't have time for message board schticks. It's too bad, too, because I sense that you actually have something worth reading in there ... somewhere.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
    User avatar
    TheDukester
     
    Posts: 3808
    Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
    Location: Operation Enduring Bacon

    Postby DuneFishUK » 06 Oct 2008 14:22

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Are you saying FH wrote Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune for no reason other than money?



    i've heard it said before:
    Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune were written for the story.
    God Emperor of Dune was written for himself
    and Heretics, Chapterhouse: Dune (and the eventual Dune 7 by FH) were written for the fans of the universe by popular demand.


    I like that. :)
    User avatar
    DuneFishUK
     
    Posts: 1987
    Joined: 25 May 2008 14:14
    Location: Cool Britannia

    Postby SandRider » 06 Oct 2008 14:29


    I donot presume to understand the motivations of the Chronicler
    in the decision to continue beyond the Death of Leto;
    speculation is grains of sand tossed into the wind

    what remains is that the writings of the Chronicler
    beyond the Bridge over the River Idaho are inferior
    to what came before

    I have heard your disappointments upon the first readings
    of the works of the Pretenders

    I was there, and I say to you :

    I felt this same disappointment some twenty years ago ....

    I was not unaware of the New False Chronicles
    I made the conscious decision to ignore them

    when they were not swallowed up in the Sand and forgotten,
    I mourned, but realised that, in the larger scheme of things,
    they were Irrelevant

    however, now, in this present time,
    the Pretenders are attempting to alter the Original Vision

    this must not stand without protest

    when a Work of Art is created that profoundly affects an individual,
    that individual may feel entitled to possession of it

    if that Work is presented in an altered form that does not conform
    to his own vision, he becomes angered
    he feels violated; his dream has been tainted

    we cannot unpublish what has been propagated
    we cannot unfilm what has been distributed
    we can only speak the Truth to the Outworlders
    so that they can enter the Known Universe with perspective





    Last edited by SandRider on 27 Oct 2008 00:50, edited 1 time in total.
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 06 Oct 2008 15:35

    Bottom line is, Frank wasn't done yet.

    I'll agree with you Sandrider, that GEoD is fantastic. In fact, it's my favourite of the series. But I do not agree with you that Heretics and Chapterhouse were unneccessary or inferior. No way. Both great books.

    Frank had more to tell, and you don't know what it was he intended to say, or where he intended to go with it.

    So please don't presume to think that those two books were unnecessary.
    User avatar
    Drunken Idaho
     
    Posts: 1197
    Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    on the DUNE sequels

    Postby Sole Man » 06 Oct 2008 15:46

    DUNE is the only one i really like I mean, I love DUNE, don't get me wrong. Its just you guys are the only people I know who love the sequels. MESSIAH was the best, and CHILDREN was...tolerable.

    But I woulod sooner read all of Frank's DUNE books than even read one more KJA book.
    Sole Man
     

    Re: on the DUNE sequels

    Postby TheDukester » 06 Oct 2008 15:54

    Sole Man wrote:DUNE is the only one i really like I mean, I love DUNE, don't get me wrong. Its just you guys are the only people I know who love the sequels. MESSIAH was the best, and CHILDREN was...tolerable.

    Not all of us feel exactly the same about the original series. My interest drops off dramatically after CoD, for example, which is fairly rare for this place. There's a lot of GEoD fans here, which is great; it just didn't do it for me.

    OH disciples, like all other groups of people, come in all shapes and sizes, and have a variety of opinions ... even on subjects where we all generally agree (i.e. The Hiking Hack and The Other Guy are completely talentless bucketheads).

    As to your last sentence: I couldn't agree more. I'd read my least-favorite FH passages 10,000 more times before I'd ever read another "chapter" (*snicker*) penned by those two losers.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
    User avatar
    TheDukester
     
    Posts: 3808
    Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
    Location: Operation Enduring Bacon

    Re: on the DUNE sequels

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 06 Oct 2008 16:00

    Sole Man wrote:DUNE is the only one i really like I mean, I love DUNE, don't get me wrong. Its just you guys are the only people I know who love the sequels. MESSIAH was the best, and CHILDREN was...tolerable.

    But I woulod sooner read all of Frank's DUNE books than even read one more KJA book.


    Messiah is possibly my least favourite of Frank's original six. But to each his own, I suppose. That's not to say I didn't like it. It's just the one I found the most jarring.
    User avatar
    Drunken Idaho
     
    Posts: 1197
    Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Postby sparafucile » 06 Oct 2008 16:03

    The topic of the 'necessity' of books has always bothered me. Personally, I don't feel as if HoD and CH:D were 'necessary' because, as had been mentioned, humanity had been saved, and there weren't really any plot threads from the four (five) previous books that needed to or could even be resolved.

    But does that mean the other two books should never have been printed? No way. Sure the books didn't really have anything to do with the previous ones except for some names and factions, but on the whole it adds to the Duniverse, and gives it more depth, more size.

    To me, when something is called 'unnecessary', I usually think of 'worthless', which is not how I feel about books 5 and 6. I do think they're 'unnecessary=not needed', but not 'unnecessary=worthless'. Additional books to a series are only unnecessary when it doesn't add anything worthwhile or rehashes currently known items in a different light (examples are obvious).

    PS: TBH, HoD and CH:D are probably my 2nd and 3rd favorites Dune books. :o
    PPS: Dune is my least favorite of the 6. :oops:
    PPPS: Love the prose, Sandrider. :)
    User avatar
    sparafucile
     
    Posts: 64
    Joined: 29 May 2008 09:12

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Oct 2008 16:19

    TBH?
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 06 Oct 2008 17:04

    After DUNE, DUNE MESSIAH is my favorite book. I love to read the fedaykin saying he was healed from Jihad by sumerging in a sea of a ocean world.
    For me, DM mix the best compounds that make me love the Duniverse: More information about the Dune scenarium, the Reign of Muad'dib, Frank's philosophy and style and the grand finale (Paul going blind to the Bled, and saving the acceptance of his children between the fremen).


    And about the two last ones: I don't know how someone can say this two books are unnecessary. I'm huge fan of the first tetralogy, but I see heretics and chapterhouse was a great source to know more about the Bene Gesserit. We never knew them as we did in this two books: Agony's ritual, Other Memories, Bene Gesserit hierarchy, the sisterhood relation between themselfs,...

    I think all this things gave much more depth for the previous books.
    The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.

    -- The Stolen Journals

    User avatar
    Lisan Al-Gaib
     
    Posts: 418
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 15:34
    Location: In the Heart of My Religion.

    Postby TheDukester » 06 Oct 2008 17:13

    Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:After DUNE, DUNE MESSIAH is my favorite book.

    I like DM quite a bit, especially the first half. Overall, that half is my favorite part of the entire Dune cycle, barring the opening chapters from Dune, which form a brilliant example of world-building and scene-setting. Seriously, setting aside all possible biases, the skill that FH displays in those first few chapters is something that The Hiking Hack and The Sidekick can only ever dream of. They'll never, ever be that good.

    Freakzilla wrote:TBH?

    To Be Honest.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
    User avatar
    TheDukester
     
    Posts: 3808
    Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
    Location: Operation Enduring Bacon

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Oct 2008 17:28

    TheDukester wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:TBH?

    To Be Honest.


    D'oh! I thought that was some DUne book I hadn't read! :lol:
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Oct 2008 18:42

    With Leto's death at the end of GEoD and the establishment of the Golden Path, humanity was safe, true, but that doesn't mean it was the End of History.

    I didn't read the last two books until '88 or so, but I never thought of them as "unnecessary".
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Postby sparafucile » 06 Oct 2008 20:47

    Freakzilla wrote:
    TheDukester wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:TBH?

    To Be Honest.


    D'oh! I thought that was some DUne book I hadn't read! :lol:


    If only ;). The long lost Dune 6.5!
    User avatar
    sparafucile
     
    Posts: 64
    Joined: 29 May 2008 09:12

    Postby SandRider » 07 Oct 2008 10:55


    “for reasons we poor men many never understand
    the Chronicler Himself chose to transform His Art into Franchise”



    in the context of the current controversy
    (being the raping of the Dune Legacy)
    the use of the word FRANCHISE was
    a poor choice and ill-advised

    I apologise and retract that word



    Are you suggesting that my missionaries of the Holy Order,
    all of them, are preaching subtle falsehood ?

    It could be a question of self-interest and sincerity ....


    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby moreh_yeladim » 07 Oct 2008 16:18

    Personally I think that Heretics and Chapterhouse were a little too close to being The Encyclopedia of the Bene Gesserit without much of an important story of their own. Why should I start caring about the witches after spending 4 books thinking they knew only a part of what humanity needed and were otherwise just an annoying little secret society?

    Of course, Chapterhouse gets a nod from me solely for finding out who *really* controls the Duniverse, capable of manipulating and indebting even the Bene Gesserit while moving invisible to prescience, inhabiting and controlling entire planets... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :twisted:
    moreh_yeladim
     
    Posts: 92
    Joined: 01 Oct 2008 10:30

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Oct 2008 16:20

    moreh_yeladim wrote:Of course, Chapterhouse gets a nod from me solely for finding out who *really* controls the Duniverse, capable of manipulating and indebting even the Bene Gesserit while moving invisible to prescience, inhabiting and controlling entire planets... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :twisted:


    Huh? Who are we talking about?? :?
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 07 Oct 2008 16:31

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    moreh_yeladim wrote:Of course, Chapterhouse gets a nod from me solely for finding out who *really* controls the Duniverse, capable of manipulating and indebting even the Bene Gesserit while moving invisible to prescience, inhabiting and controlling entire planets... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :twisted:


    Huh? Who are we talking about?? :?


    I think he is referring to what I said many posts before.
    The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.

    -- The Stolen Journals

    User avatar
    Lisan Al-Gaib
     
    Posts: 418
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 15:34
    Location: In the Heart of My Religion.

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Oct 2008 16:41

    Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    moreh_yeladim wrote:Of course, Chapterhouse gets a nod from me solely for finding out who *really* controls the Duniverse, capable of manipulating and indebting even the Bene Gesserit while moving invisible to prescience, inhabiting and controlling entire planets... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :twisted:


    Huh? Who are we talking about?? :?


    I think he is referring to what I said many posts before.


    This post?:

    Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:After DUNE, DUNE MESSIAH is my favorite book. I love to read the fedaykin saying he was healed from Jihad by sumerging in a sea of a ocean world.
    For me, DM mix the best compounds that make me love the Duniverse: More information about the Dune scenarium, the Reign of Muad'dib, Frank's philosophy and style and the grand finale (Paul going blind to the Bled, and saving the acceptance of his children between the fremen).


    And about the two last ones: I don't know how someone can say this two books are unnecessary. I'm huge fan of the first tetralogy, but I see heretics and chapterhouse was a great source to know more about the Bene Gesserit. We never knew them as we did in this two books: Agony's ritual, Other Memories, Bene Gesserit hierarchy, the sisterhood relation between themselfs,...

    I think all this things gave much more depth for the previous books.


    I don't see anything in there about finding out about a secret "someone" who "*really* controls the Duniverse, capable of manipulating and indebting even the Bene Gesserit while moving invisible to prescience, inhabiting and controlling entire planets... "

    Who are you talking about Moreh? I'm lost on this one, I don't rmember anyone who was controling the dunverse above and beyond LetoII and the BG.
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Postby Tleszer » 07 Oct 2008 17:44

    Daniel and Marty with their net?
    DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie
    User avatar
    Tleszer
     
    Posts: 2161
    Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:02

    Postby Tleszer » 08 Oct 2008 07:36

    All hail the Normacle, for she will save us from the terrible machines!

    *sigh*
    DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie
    User avatar
    Tleszer
     
    Posts: 2161
    Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:02

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Oct 2008 16:09

    Tleszer wrote:All hail the Normacle, for she will save us from the terrible machines!

    iPods? :?
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Next

    Return to ˱

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests