• Register
  • Login
  •          

    Bryon's True Feelings ?

    Image
      Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

    Bryon's True Feelings ?

    Postby SandRider » 21 Oct 2008 19:53

    I apologize in advance for the length of this post & the multiple quotes.
    I know that some of you cannot easily access DN (and some don't care)
    But I thought this might be important.

    Is Byron's last statement here his true feelings ?


    From DN, today:
    boardadmin wrote:
    nuduneman wrote:
    boardadmin wrote:
    Didn't really answer my question though, did you? I think this is because it is (possibly) impossible for you to come to terms with the fact that the books are continuing to do well and to be read by people all over the world ...even after a decade of --- what you would call --- bad writing and poor depth. Either you're right and all of these other people are wrong or it's the other way round. If you accept the fact that there a millions of readers who read the books but don't post online in forums, etc. there must be a large population that enjoy the books but we never hear from them. I would use evidence to support this assumption due to the fact that, again, we're a decade + into the new Dune series' of books and still
    going strong. The publisher surely would've dumped the authors if the opposite were true.



    I believe the fans of the two "Dune" series are (with a few exceptions) two complete and separate groups. Fans of the original series seem to be older, perhaps, with higher education (meaning university level), and see the original Dune books as literature. They enjoy the complex religious, political, and sociological ideas presented in the books, and enjoy speculating and discussing these ideas in a context away from the books themselves.

    Fans of the new series are younger, with less education (possibly due to their age) and see the nuDune books as entertainment. They enjoy the quick, light read, the star wars-like action scenes, and are not overly concerned with broader philosophical themes.

    You are dealing with two different types of people. Naturally, there will be disagreement and misunderstanding.


    I think we've both given generalizations about the people who read the old and new Dune novels.

    Me. I don't read Star Wars novels and I have a Bachelor's Degree. I'm sure there are other folks out there who enjoy the new Dune books who have higher education, too. Likewise I'm sure there are OHers out there who have very little beyond high school level. Just my two cents...


    nuduneman wrote:Generalizations, like stereotypes & statistics, are useful in discussing larger-scale phenomena, and can, of course, break down at the individual level.

    I think the main gist of my statement is that classic Dune fans may find the new books beneath them, and nuDune fans may find the classic series too complex and difficult to understand. Again, I think this may
    have something primarily to do with age.

    edit:
    I quoted you above mainly for this line :
    "books are continuing to do well and to be read by people all over the world"
    (I included the entire paragraph for context.)

    I think that the group of people who are reading the book ARE NOT the first group, the classic fans. At least, not at this point in the series. After browsing over other Dune sites, the overwhelming evidence is that many, if not most, have not bothered to read them, after their reaction to the first few. Those that do read them are doing primarily to post against the new books, with the honesty of actually having read them. Others rely on the valued opinions of these collegues.

    The "people all over the world" group then, in my estimation, are in fact, new fans, who have not yet come to the original series, either because of the daunting complexities of the classic work, or availibility, or any number of other speculative reasons. Perhaps they will do so in time.


    boardadmin wrote:
    nuduneman wrote:Perhaps they will do so in time.


    That is my and my family's fervent hope.
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    on Byron's true feelings.

    Postby Sole Man » 21 Oct 2008 20:30

    Ugh...What?

    Byron's stated several time sthat he likes the old books, and that they have meaning.


    He just wants the new boks to Sell Sell Sell! And anyone who badmouths them gets hushed.

    He wants his money, Byron wants to be free, and KJA wants to take down Science Fiction's greatest seiries so people will buy and love his books.
    Sole Man
     

    Re: Bryon's True Feelings ?

    Postby TheDukester » 21 Oct 2008 20:36

    I Sold My Soul A Long Time Ago wrote:That is my and my family's fervent hope.

    ... along with regular trips to the bank.

    +++++

    Interesting stuff, overall, SandRider, but Byron lost any credibility he had remaining with his "best thing they've ever written" nonsense. What he thinks or feels is beyond irrelevant.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
    User avatar
    TheDukester
     
    Posts: 3808
    Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
    Location: Operation Enduring Bacon

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 21 Oct 2008 21:19

    I have no doubts that he admires his grandfather's work above all else. he enjoys the nuDune because he is excited to see the story being continued by his uncle, and let's not forget that it's his job to essentially be PR for the online Dune community.
    User avatar
    Drunken Idaho
     
    Posts: 1197
    Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 21 Oct 2008 21:53

    I believe Byron when he says that he hopes readers will move from the New Dune novels to his grandfather's originals. But I don't for one minute believe that he sees that as the purpose of the new novels.

    (Not that he said or implied it, just for clarification).

    I generally agree (very broadly) with the characterization between the two sets of readers, incidentally. But I don't read the new novels because they're "beneath" me. I don't read them because they're not very good.

    I *do* read light space operas that *are* good. Banks, for example. MacLeod, on occasion. Simmons. You know, writers that know something about plot and characterization and language.

    HBJ
    User avatar
    Hunchback Jack
     
    Posts: 1982
    Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
    Location: California, USA

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2008 04:20


    Credibility...yes. An interesting word.
    Remorse ... moreso.

    I heard the last line as a plea ... or a prayer.




    naw, bullshit. if they wanted "new fans to come to the original series" they'd've
    promoted the old books better, produced the notes of Dune7 for all to see, found an
    actual author to ghost write for the other guy, not tried to cram new books IN BETWEEN
    the old ones, all of that.

    yeah, you guys are right, it's all about the money
    fuck byron.
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2008 04:23

    damn. it's 4:20 again
    in the morning....
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2008 08:41

    It simply amazes me that they can say we don't read the new books without being struck dead by lightening.

    I bought hardcovers of all their crap until I read Hunters and could take no more.

    I bet there are people here that know the new books better than anyone of the Preeks at DN.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2008 08:45

    I'd even go as far as saying there are people here who know the new books better than BH & KJA.

    Not only do they appear not to have read the originals, it doesn't look like they have read their own books.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 Oct 2008 09:51

    ^^ I have my doubts about that as well.


    Byron was being completely honest there. He and his family do hope that the masses all come around and buy, buy, buy those books. New and old. They get money everytime one of Frank's books sells as well as theirs. Now, make no mistake, KJA is only interested in his steamers selling, but Byron isn't going to turn down a check from his grandfather's work, that's for sure.....
    Image
    User avatar
    Tleilax Master B
     
    Posts: 674
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:54
    Location: Desert of New Mexico

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2008 15:00

    I just sorta felt ..... sorry ? .... for him for a minute
    when I first read it. Struck me as kinda.... sad.
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 22 Oct 2008 16:00

    This is from a rather heated exchange between Byron and I that took place on August 29:

    DrunkenDuncan wrote:
    boardadmin wrote:
    DrunkenDuncan wrote: I don't see your point, nor do I see the correlation between those two quotes you give.


    Of course you don't.

    DrunkenDuncan wrote:I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think we "beat on them" for whatever deserves criticism.


    Criticism can be warranted, for sure, regardless of the writer or the material. But when you swap criticisms and make counterpoints to points you've made earlier, I begin to question motives. That was my point.

    DrunkenDuncan wrote:Slack-off mentats? Criticism. Lazy storytelling via a deus ex machina? Criticism. Familiar characters acting in ways they wouldn't act normally? Criticism. Veering off the Golden Path? Criticism. Lack of a proper ending? Criticism.


    The mentats aren't slacking. Was Thufir slacking when he failed to estimate the size of the force that would be attacking them on DUNE? You can't claim one without the other, and that's where I question your motives regarding criticism. I've already covered the deus ex machina argument because it applies directly to what some are claiming to be "transparent" issues regarding the infiltration of the Face Dancers. Sticking to the straight-and-narrow as far as character actions just doesn't fly one iota with me. Characters change. Paul. Alia. IRULAN! And with that change comes changes in their actions. True, Frank was better at the subtleties of this, but the new authors do fine, too. "Veering off the Golden Path?" Do you really think that Frank was going to keep on the Golden Path forever? Let's be realists here. Frank's message was about change over stagnation. And although this was also the message of the Golden Path, it was still a PATH. "Lack of a proper ending?" According to whom?

    DrunkenDuncan wrote:I know that you often label these areas as negativity, but we're in a forum! It's unreasonable to think that there won't be any fans who are upset when mediocrity is published as Dune.


    I don't begrudge people their opinions, but when it filters into every, single thread, it won't be allowed. Ever. By those with an agenda against the new novels. Now that's transparent.


    Byron, I assure you that my motive for posting here is because I love Dune. The only reason it seems that I might have an agenda against the new novels is because of the same reason I gave above. The new novels simply invite criticism. I come to this forum because it's the most active forum in which I can discuss Dune. The other forums are slow and less populated, so I come here. Naturally, there is much talk about the new novels here and I give my opinion when it's prudent to do so. I'm sorry if it seems to you like every single thread ends up negative. Criticism of the new books certainly comes up a lot, but believe me, I would love it if we could be posting how much we love the new books and what they've added to the series. And I would post here just as much! But that simply isn't the case, and I truly think it's sad.

    I highly doubt that I've ever contradicted myself as you claim. One of the quotes you gave was by me (the "I'm not a Mentat" comment) and the deus ex machina comment was someone else. Please don't lump us all together and say we contradict ourselves. Contradiction between OHers is to be expected. For instance, many OHers would disagree with me about the revelation in Hunters about the Honored Matres turning out to be founded by revived Axlotl tanks. Pure brilliance, in my opinion. There was something about "now they would be the revered ones" that truly made my jaw drop. Both the revelation and the writing itself impressed me greatly. I'm sure a lot of OHers would disagree with me on this, but that's the way it goes. Different people have differing points to contribute from differing opinions. When it comes to my own opinions, you'll find no contradictions and no agendas.

    And no, Thufir wasn't slacking. He was flawed, by his own admission, but he made a mistaken projection. This is much different from Duncan and Teg completely missing the obvious face Dancer infiltration. I can claim one without the other. If it was the same as Thufir's mistake, then a more accurate situation would be if Duncan figured out that there are definitely Face Dancers from the Handler planet aboard the no-ship, but due to bad data, he was led to believe that it was Teg and Sheeana, as opposed to Thufir and the Rabbi. You see, in that situation at least he tried. Instead, Duncan slacked off, which is unacceptable from the universe-saving ultra-mentat. Maybe it was just a giant mentat brain-fart.

    Byron wrote:True, Frank was better at the subtleties of this, but the new authors do fine, too.


    Well I'm glad we agree on this one. I'm sorry if this seems negative, but "fine" is not why I fell in love with Dune. When someone asks me what i think of the Dune series I use words like "fantastic" and "amazing."

    "So I just finished reading God Emperor of Dune."
    "How was it?"
    "Fine."


    To me, the Dune novels were among great literature. If the new authors do fine, then why do they bother at all, especially now that they've written more books than Frank did? I can think of a reason why but every time I mention it, the post is deleted. And it never involves swearing or vulgarity.

    Byron wrote:Do you really think that Frank was going to keep on the Golden Path forever?


    Yes! It wouldn't be golden if it didn't go on forever. That's what the GP is all about! Eternity! Whether he understood it or not, Paul knew it as terrible purpose, right from the first book. It was GP in the beginning (Dune), GP in the middle (GEoD), so why wouldn't it be GP in the end?

    This is why I found the ending unsatisfying. Judging from that ending, humanity will fall into stagnation in a matter of time. Just wait until the robots (or the people) working for Duncan become corrupt and bring his whole system crashing down, like every other charismatic leader in Dune. Or wait until Omnius comes back from the netherworld to get his revenge. Where's the Golden Path in that?

    I'm sorry If I seem difficult, but I'm here to discuss Dune. If the new authors want to put out Dune books, then we're bound to discuss them as well.


    Notice the red emphasis.

    His response is worth checking out too:
    http://www.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=61738

    Subtleties are key. They are what make good writing. To me, the above is Byron admitting that the new books pail in comparison.
    User avatar
    Drunken Idaho
     
    Posts: 1197
    Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 22 Oct 2008 16:07

    Byron wrote:I know what you're saying about my deletions of things you've written before, but they are assumptions based on no fact$ and will always be deleted (if you catch my meaning).


    This was Byron's response to this comment:

    DrunkenDuncan wrote:To me, the Dune novels were among great literature. If the new authors do fine, then why do they bother at all, especially now that they've written more books than Frank did? I can think of a reason why but every time I mention it, the post is deleted. And it never involves swearing or vulgarity.


    We were both of course referring to the monetary gains of KJA and Brian Herbert.
    User avatar
    Drunken Idaho
     
    Posts: 1197
    Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2008 16:12

    They're about as subtle as a sledgehammer.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 Oct 2008 16:14

    Look, for all practical purposes Byron is paid to defend them. He has a monetary stake in the whole deal and that's why he acts like he does. Even if he hates the damn books, he would never say that bc he risk losing some ca$h by pissing off the rest of the family who hold the purse strings. You can argue until you are blue in the face with him, with all the valid points and facts you can muster, and he will NEVER agree to "our" side. Just like as long as I am gainfully employed where I am now, I will never tell my boss she is a complete bitch (she is, btw :P ).
    Image
    User avatar
    Tleilax Master B
     
    Posts: 674
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:54
    Location: Desert of New Mexico

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2008 17:51

    I guess it makes difference to me to know how he really feels. If he hates the new books, but is stuck in this situation, he is a victim. In that case, I'd feel pity and sympathy, instead of personal anger.
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby TheDukester » 22 Oct 2008 18:00

    I came into the game too late to have participated in the glory days of Byron actually acting ... well, like less of a drone.

    Some of his past posts reflect a person who is intelligent and well-spoken. But — and this is just being honest — he's currently either power-mad, delusional, or, frankly, dumber than a bag of hammers. "Best thing they've ever written," indeed.

    If the HLP (and by that I pretty much mean KJA, who is clearly in charge) has, indeed, muzzled him and demanded that he crush all dissent, then I am capable of feeling a bit of pity for the guy. That can't be a fun situation.

    But if he's just gone mad with power and the thrill of cashing his checks — not to mention gleefully tossing his own grandfather overboard — then he's just another drone who's in it for the money. And that's just pathetic.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
    User avatar
    TheDukester
     
    Posts: 3808
    Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
    Location: Operation Enduring Bacon

    Postby Serkanner » 22 Oct 2008 18:02

    How can he be a victim? Did they drag him by his hair into this situation or did he volunteer to become part of dumbnovels and the HLP? I think the latter and therefore see him as another traitor to his grandfather's legacy just to make some $
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
    User avatar
    Serkanner
     
    Posts: 2806
    Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
    Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2008 18:59

    I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18074
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 22 Oct 2008 19:21

    I think this sentence:

    Brian and Kevin LOVE the Duniverse; they've dedicated over a decade of research and writings to it. Granted they aren't as "good as Frank" at it, but I find quality in good enough measurable quantity to continue reading their work.


    ... is probably an accurate depiction of his opinion. I think he considers FH's work to be far better than the more recent novels, but that the more recent ones are "good enough" to enjoy, and to keep reading as they emerge.

    It would be tempting to believe that all the positive comments, rationalization of inconsistencies, and deletion of critical posts, is due to his position as PR man and moderator. But it's probably not that simple.

    HBJ
    User avatar
    Hunchback Jack
     
    Posts: 1982
    Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
    Location: California, USA

    Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 22 Oct 2008 19:24

    Hunchback Jack wrote:I think this sentence:

    Brian and Kevin LOVE the Duniverse; they've dedicated over a decade of research and writings to it. Granted they aren't as "good as Frank" at it, but I find quality in good enough measurable quantity to continue reading their work.


    ... is probably an accurate depiction of his opinion. I think he considers FH's work to be far better than the more recent novels, but that the more recent ones are "good enough" to enjoy, and to keep reading as they emerge.

    It would be tempting to believe that all the positive comments, rationalization of inconsistencies, and deletion of critical posts, is due to his position as PR man and moderator. But it's probably not that simple.

    HBJ


    maybe we should make a ghola of Freud as well as one of Frank Herbert to understand all his situation.
    The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.

    -- The Stolen Journals

    User avatar
    Lisan Al-Gaib
     
    Posts: 418
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 15:34
    Location: In the Heart of My Religion.

    Postby SandChigger » 22 Oct 2008 19:48

    Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.

    No, he tries to GIVE you that feeling.

    He could walk. He doesn't.

    If he was really trying to keep the boards open to everyone, he would have quit as admin rather than ban people. He didn't.

    No, we're seeing the real Byron now.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 Oct 2008 20:59

    Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.


    Yup. I have always had the same sneaky suspicion......
    Image
    User avatar
    Tleilax Master B
     
    Posts: 674
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:54
    Location: Desert of New Mexico

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2008 22:58

    Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.


    I've heard you say it before & I guess that's why it sticks in my mind
    when I'm dealing with him. I'm trying to wade thru the bullshit barefooted.
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Postby Mr. Teg » 23 Oct 2008 01:07

    Tleilax Master B wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.


    Yup. I have always had the same sneaky suspicion......


    A year ago, a possibility, but now, no way.
    CHOAM
    Combine Herbert Ober Anderson Mercantile, Narf!
    Brian, Kevin & Byron Image The HLP
    User avatar
    Mr. Teg
    Moderator
     
    Posts: 699
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:14
    Location: Chair

    Next

    Return to ˱

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests