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    Why Museum Fremen

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      Native inhabitants of Arrakis, descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers

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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Thodol » 20 Oct 2011 23:07

    I always assumed it was more of a literary device directed towards the reader more than something important to the plot itself. We see the greatest warriors in the universe reduced to a very committed puppet show. Everything they were and how important they seemed in the first books and now they are nothing.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 Oct 2011 02:31

    That really sums up how I felt about them.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Mandy » 30 Dec 2011 20:16

    Chapter 18 in Children of Dune reminds me of the museum Fremen (somehow). It's the one right after Leto shocks Stilgar by saying how beautiful the young women are this year. Then Stilgar goes on to think about how the old Imperium had suppressed all sense of creativity and progress, how the Fremen Sietch culture suppressed those things, and how Alia was attempting to suppress those things with the priesthood.

    I still don't understand the purpose of the museum Fremen, but I think it might be part of the pattern. "Helpless people for whom there was no succor."

    I'm in the middle of CoD right now, so this post is kind of here as a reminder to myself to pay more attention to how the things laid out in CoD come together with what happens in GEoD (if that makes any sense).
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby FreeParking » 24 Jan 2012 02:04

    This is an interesting question, for which I unfortunately had little new to add to. My initial thought was the same as some others here: That Leto knew he would eventually return to the desert and re-start the "Dune" cycle of the planet, so he wanted to keep the Fremen traditions alive for the future inhabitants.

    A Thing of Eternity wrote: I think it's pretty safe to bet that FH put them there specifically to hurt the reader and to teach them a lesson about stagnation and impermanance.


    This is a very interesting thought as to FH's motivation. I remember the first time reading through GEoD, this had a very profound impact on me. It made me feel disoriented, and I think it unfortunately, to some degree, soured me on the novel the first time I read it through.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jan 2012 10:01

    FreeParking wrote:This is an interesting question, for which I unfortunately had little new to add to. My initial thought was the same as some others here: That Leto knew he would eventually return to the desert and re-start the "Dune" cycle of the planet, so he wanted to keep the Fremen traditions alive for the future inhabitants.

    A Thing of Eternity wrote: I think it's pretty safe to bet that FH put them there specifically to hurt the reader and to teach them a lesson about stagnation and impermanance.


    This is a very interesting thought as to FH's motivation. I remember the first time reading through GEoD, this had a very profound impact on me. It made me feel disoriented, and I think it unfortunately, to some degree, soured me on the novel the first time I read it through.


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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby lotek » 24 Jan 2012 10:08

    Freakzilla wrote:It's anti-dune. It's not what you fell in love with the series for.


    And that is precisely why it is so Dune :)
    Because it applies its own lessons to itself.

    A paradox that many find confusing.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby pcqypcqy » 22 Aug 2017 23:22

    Do the museum fremen dance?

    FH loves his dances. It's mentioned in CoD a bit, and then again in Heretics, but left out of GEoD. At least a detailed analysis of it.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Aug 2017 06:49

    pcqypcqy wrote:Do the museum fremen dance?

    FH loves his dances. It's mentioned in CoD a bit, and then again in Heretics, but left out of GEoD. At least a detailed analysis of it.


    For a clue to my role as outsider, look at the arts of my time. The
    arts are barbaric. The favorite poetry? The Epic. The popular dramatic ideal?
    Heroism. Dances? Wildly abandoned. From Moneo's viewpoint, he is correct in
    describing this as dangerous.


    The Fish Speakers danced, though. In the privacy of their quarters and on the bridge just before Leto's assassination.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Omphalos » 23 Aug 2017 11:16

    Freakzilla wrote:
    pcqypcqy wrote:Do the museum fremen dance?

    FH loves his dances. It's mentioned in CoD a bit, and then again in Heretics, but left out of GEoD. At least a detailed analysis of it.


    For a clue to my role as outsider, look at the arts of my time. The
    arts are barbaric. The favorite poetry? The Epic. The popular dramatic ideal?
    Heroism. Dances? Wildly abandoned. From Moneo's viewpoint, he is correct in
    describing this as dangerous.


    The Fish Speakers danced, though. In the privacy of their quarters and on the bridge just before Leto's assassination.


    I don't think he was saying that they have abandoned dance. I think he is saying that the character of the dances that they now do is wild, and appears to "abandon" social graces. He's saying that culturally they have regressed, and the dances that they do are crazy, tribal, and that the dancers have abandoned their senses.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby georgiedenbro » 23 Aug 2017 12:06

    I think part of the problem he's pointing out in these art forms isn't merely that they're dangerous (from Moneo's point of view) because they're primitive and wild, but specifically because they all point towards worship of great leaders. The epic form and hero worship he describes is illustrative of people who want to look up to someone greater than themselves and idolize him, while the wild dances perhaps suggest a kind of emotional abandon that is easily subject to manipulation. The Fremen in Dune aren't portrayed as dancers in the literal sense, but they do have that frenzied mindset of being easily whipped into action when provoked, as Paul and Jessica took full advantage of. It made them easy to lead, so long as the leader did exactly what they wanted. Since Leto II is the prototype of the 'great leader' who all may worship, it stands to reason his followers would be of that wild disposition.

    I'm also reminded of Sheeana's dance when I think about the quote Freak provided, as she seems to be able to communicate with the worms using that primal energy but without being a fanatic herself. I had understood previously that what Sheeana was able to do was to communicate with that animalistic side of Leto that he called the worm, but now that I think of it part of why the worms may have reacted positively to her dances and commands was because it was the language of Siaynoq that the worms instinctively remembered from the Fish Speakers. What I'm now wondering is whether Siaynoq wasn't just as much about training Leto as about training his Fish Speakers. Having participated in it so many times he, himself would have its lesson in his bones and would respond to it down the line when someone like Sheena came along.

    And then there's this line is Heretics which I never quite understood:

    Siaynoq become a sexual grip on uncounted billions in the Scattering!


    There's some connection between the frenzied dance, sexuality, and the fact of the Honored Matres becoming from they did as they descended from Fish Speakers and RM's. Might we suggest that the HM's turned Siaynoq itself into the sexual enslavement? And if so, did Leto inculcate the desire to do this into them deliberately? What aim might he have in sending people into the Scattering with the instinct to form powerful sexual bonds such as they learned through Siaynoq? Or maybe he intended them to learn something better but they learned the wrong lesson from it.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Aug 2017 14:37

    Maybe the Fish Speakers experience some kind of near sexual ecstasy during the ritual and that became a perversion of the BG imprinter training?

    I don't think Leto planned this, he just wanted "infinite" humanity.

    Back to the question of do Museum Fremen dance, I don't think there was any examples of them dancing in GEoD but I do recall references of the Fremen Dancing and they were supposed to preserve their ancient ways, so...

    Unrelated... Leto also mentions the Hula in GEoD.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby georgiedenbro » 23 Aug 2017 14:53

    Freakzilla wrote:Maybe the Fish Speakers experience some kind of near sexual ecstasy during the ritual and that became a perversion of the BG imprinter training?

    I don't think Leto planned this, he just wanted "infinite" humanity.


    I agree that he didn't plan out the future. But he surely knew that training the Fish Speakers in this way would have some effect down the line. I think he was interested in teaching as well as saving Humanity, and I see something noteworthy in the lessons of Siaynoq. There's something in there about belonging to someone and having them belong to you as I feel Leto and the Fish Speakers belonged to each other in a way. It doesn't come across to me as him being the master and they're his slaves; more like a joined bond that can't be broken. I think this is part of what Frank was alluding to in the Duncan/Murbella bond, and I guess I suspect that Siaynoq was going to be relevant in Dune 7 in terms of their bonded connection. What I meant by saying Leto intended a lesson but the HM's learned the wrong one might be that they took the idea of being bonded to someone and turned it into a weapon. And yeah, like you say, probably used the RM imprinter training to try to (incorrectly) reproduce what Leto had done with them.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby pcqypcqy » 23 Aug 2017 18:28

    Freakzilla wrote:Maybe the Fish Speakers experience some kind of near sexual ecstasy during the ritual and that became a perversion of the BG imprinter training?

    I don't think Leto planned this, he just wanted "infinite" humanity.

    Back to the question of do Museum Fremen dance, I don't think there was any examples of them dancing in GEoD but I do recall references of the Fremen Dancing and they were supposed to preserve their ancient ways, so...

    Unrelated... Leto also mentions the Hula in GEoD.



    Your earlier quote was in my mind but I couldn't find it.

    Also when Duncan and Siona arrive in Tuono, Garun (the "Naib") offers to demonstrate Fremen rituals or dances. So presumably they have preserved this, it just doesn't get much of a mention.
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Aug 2017 22:17

    "Are you aware," he asked his imaginary visitor that the hula preserves an ancient sign language
    which once belonged only to males? You've never heard of the hula'' Of course. Who dances it
    anymore? Dancers have preserved many things, though. The translations have been lost, but I know
    them.


    ...


    "What does that song mean?" he asked.
    "Oh. It's . . . it's just a song."
    "Siona!"
    She heard anger in his voice and remained silent.
    "This planet is the child of the worm," he warned her, "and I am that worm."
    She responded with a surprising insouciance: "Then tell me what it means."
    "The insect has no more freedom from its hive than we have freedom from our past," he said. "The
    caves are there and all of the messages written in the sprays of the torrents."
    "I prefer dancing songs," she said.
    It was a flippant answer, but Leto chose to take it as a change of subject. He told her about the
    marriage dance of
    Fremen women, tracing the steps back to the whirling of dust devils. Leto prided himself on
    telling a good story. It was clear from her rapt attention that she could see the women whirling
    before her inner eye, long black hair thrown in the ancient movements, straggling across long-dead
    faces.

    ...

    Garun addressed himself to Siona, correctly identifying the gold piping of Fish Speaker Command in
    her uniform.
    "Will you wish a performance of our Fremen rituals?" he asked. "The music, perhaps? The dance?"
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    Re: Why Museum Fremen

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Aug 2017 22:28

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Maybe the Fish Speakers experience some kind of near sexual ecstasy during the ritual and that became a perversion of the BG imprinter training?

    I don't think Leto planned this, he just wanted "infinite" humanity.


    I agree that he didn't plan out the future. But he surely knew that training the Fish Speakers in this way would have some effect down the line. I think he was interested in teaching as well as saving Humanity, and I see something noteworthy in the lessons of Siaynoq. There's something in there about belonging to someone and having them belong to you as I feel Leto and the Fish Speakers belonged to each other in a way. It doesn't come across to me as him being the master and they're his slaves; more like a joined bond that can't be broken. I think this is part of what Frank was alluding to in the Duncan/Murbella bond, and I guess I suspect that Siaynoq was going to be relevant in Dune 7 in terms of their bonded connection. What I meant by saying Leto intended a lesson but the HM's learned the wrong one might be that they took the idea of being bonded to someone and turned it into a weapon. And yeah, like you say, probably used the RM imprinter training to try to (incorrectly) reproduce what Leto had done with them.


    The Fish Speakers were his brides... funny that they aligned with the Ixians afterwards. :wink:
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