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Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 21 May 2009 22:35
by Skibum
This always got to me when I read Children of Dune. Chani is never depicted in much detail in the books. She's elfin faced, red haired, and apparently pretty. But beyond that she's just Paul's mate. I never felt there was much depth to her character. She existed only because every hero in a story needs his woman.

I don't know of a better way to phrase this question but my query stems from Children of Dune where Leto and Ghanima are playing the father and mother roles, "almost to their destruction." Ghanima and Paul let their parents take over them, or whatever, so they can learn and discuss Paul's last vision (although why couldn't this happen internally, e.g. no need to let their parents emerge onto their consciousness, since other memories can communicate with one another?) Anyway, Leto remarks his father's "supreme act of will" when Paul did not take over Leto's body. Chani, however, did and for hours, Ghanima wrestled with her or whatever. Chani wants Paul (in the body to leto) to join her and live again. But eventually Chani steps back because of the persuasion of Paul/Leto.

This paints, in my view, quite a negative picture of Chani. Do guys have any thoughts about this?



But as we all know, in Sandworms of Dune, Paul tells Chani he loved her for 5000 years :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 05:24
by inhuien
No I do not think it paints her in the negative at all. She died young and had a lust for life, what you should focus on her is that she voluntarily relinquishes possession of her child and returns to the hoard (?) of Other Memory. That shows strength rather than weakness.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 05:38
by SadisticCynic
What also comes to mind is the occasion when she was called from the South Palmaries to rejoin Paul by Jessica. She knew something was wrong but she had enough control not to simply blurt it out.

I also recall that the relationship between Paul and Chani was quite realistic; it wasn't all desperate emotion and romance. Chani always came across to me as a strong woman and a fine wife (well, you know what I mean). Her loyalty extended even to being willing to give up Paul when he seized the throne by marrying Irulan.

I think she is the closest we get to seeing true Fremen strength; Stilgar is different, he is a leader, not an average sietch member.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 14:32
by loremaster
Chani is a good fremen, she thinks first of the old ways, and for the good of the tribe, and she supports her man. she was adept at the fremen traits of patience, and discipline, and emotional control.

equally, with the scene in the desert, we know that almost any persona will try and overtake the preborn. I see it as more of a testament to Paul's willpower that he was able to resist, than Chani's weakness for succumbing. AND she did recede, albeit with help..... who is to say even the jessica persona would be strong enough to withdraw?

That same persona also had the strength, when defending her daughter's mind, to subdue all the other personas, and "stand guard at the gate". IMO, this is probably an even bigger achievement than Leto's co-operation (though never forget leto was always dominant).

She was also Sayyadina, epitomising fremen ways of life. She did her duties, without question. She took instruction from paul, sparing Irulan when she wanted to murder her.

She was an accomplished fighter. Taking on many who challenged Paul in the desert days.

AND more importantly, Paul loved her, because of her previously stated lust for life, I think she was an example of someone in touch? (whatever you are) with Siaynoq, that vitality leto tried to instil in most humans.

In short, i think she was an excellent role model for her children, and future generations.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 18:44
by Nekhrun
She's about as good as her culture allows. Going to a summons from Jessica meant leaving the baby behind, but that's the way it goes. Baby Leto dying was the best thing that happened to the universe. Also, it's good to see the backwards running thing again.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 18:59
by Skibum
Yeah. I guess I was really just referring to this particular scene which I felt creates a dichotomy between the two parents; where Paul is benevolent and wonderful and Chani is selfish. My point was that this scene makes Chani look selfish/evil/whatever. But I guess no one else feels that way.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 20:02
by SandRider
the Chani of the Other Memory of Ghanima is not the Chani of real life .....


one who had ancestral memories of Leto II before the sandtrout
and one who had memories of The God-emperor would have two
very different people in their head

to judge Chani, the actual Living Woman, by the thoughts of the
living memories of Chani inside Ghanima's head is not reliable

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 20:17
by SandChigger
(Psssst! Big weenie, but never went bang-bang. ;) )

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 20:29
by SandRider
what the fuck does that mean ?

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 20:30
by SadisticCynic
I was thinking something similar...

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 20:43
by SandRider
no, I get it now

he's poking a hole in my example, which was poor

Leto the God-emperor had no offspring, therefore no-one would have had
ancestral memories ....

which wasn't the point. I was saying that judging Chani the Woman
by Chani the Memory in Ghani's head isn't fair ....

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 May 2009 22:51
by SandChigger
Right. And the problem with the Leto II example didn't affect your argument, hence the parentheses. :animals-bunnywhite:

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 21 Jun 2009 21:53
by moreh_yeladim
Where did it say Chani had red hair? I really never imagined such a thing as a ginger Fremen.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 21 Jun 2009 22:43
by SandChigger
moreh_yeladim wrote:I really never imagined such a thing as a ginger Fremen.

Isn't that what Paul said the first time he saw Chani unclothed?


(You'd have thought he'd have seen it coming in a vision, though... :P )

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 07:48
by Tleszer
:lol:

I don't remember if it was mentioned earlier, but I know that it was said in Children of Dune.

In the chapter that begins with:
You have loved Caladan / And lamented its lost host -- / But pain discovers / New lovers cannot erase / Those forever ghost.
-Refrain from The Habbanya Lament


In the second paragraph:
Ghanima was more like her mother. There was Chani's red hair, the set of Chani's eyes, and a calculating way about her when she adjusted to difficulties. She often said that she only did what she had to do, but where Leto led she would follow.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 08:51
by Freakzilla
:cylon101: Chani was only 1/2 Fremen, her father was Liet Kynes and her Grandfather was Pardot Kynes.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 11:17
by SandChigger
See yer 1/2 and raise you 1/4? :P

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 11:21
by Freakzilla
SandChigger wrote:See yer 1/2 and raise you 1/4? :P


I started to write "1/4" but I wasn't sure and I've been thinking about that...

Liet Kynes was half Fremen, right? So if his wife was Fremen, Chani should be 3/4 Fremen.

Correct?

:?

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 11:23
by Freakzilla
Besides, I believe Kynes was blonde and there is mention of other blonde Fremen. I don't see why a redheaded Fremen would be a suprise to anyone.

It's not like they let the sun touch them, ever. If so, they'd need HATS! :x

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 11:37
by SandChigger
Freakzilla wrote:I started to write "1/4" but I wasn't sure and I've been thinking about that...

Liet Kynes was half Fremen, right? So if his wife was Fremen, Chani should be 3/4 Fremen.

Correct?

:?

That's what I was thinking, 3/4 Fremen, since presumably Pardot was the only out-freyn.

(What would that make Leto and Ghanima? ;) )

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 11:58
by Freakzilla
SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I started to write "1/4" but I wasn't sure and I've been thinking about that...

Liet Kynes was half Fremen, right? So if his wife was Fremen, Chani should be 3/4 Fremen.

Correct?

:?

That's what I was thinking, 3/4 Fremen, since presumably Pardot was the only out-freyn.

(What would that make Leto and Ghanima? ;) )


I think you would have to convert to metric for that. :?

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 22 Jun 2009 17:52
by SandChigger
That's what I got, too.

So by blood they were mostly offworlder.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 16:22
by chanilover
They were ginger warriors. Was that from the Harkonnen side?

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 17:48
by Freakzilla
chanilover wrote:They were ginger warriors. Was that from the Harkonnen side?


The red hair, you mean? I guess that would be from Jessica so, yeah.

Re: Is Chani a bad mother/person?

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 18:46
by SadisticCynic
Chani had red hair as well, didn't she? Could have been from her.