Fremen & SPICE

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    Native inhabitants of Arrakis, descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers

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Fantômas

Fremen & SPICE

Postby Fantômas » 20 Feb 2008 12:37

Why Does the Fremen not evolve? They're surrounded by Spice.

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Postby SandChigger » 20 Feb 2008 12:45

Why do you think that spice causes evolution? :?

The Fremen were surrounded by spice, and had a much higher daily intake than any other inhabitants of the Imperium except the Navigators and maybe the B.G. later, but even they came nowhere near to the lethal doses necessary to provoke a spice trance. But they did have their own "wild" Reverend Mothers.

At least that's my understanding.

(Not quite sure where you're wanting to go with this one.)
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Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 20 Feb 2008 13:13

Why do you think that spice causes evolution?

(Not quite sure where you're wanting to go with this one.)


Doesn't the Spice causes mutations?...long life?...Prescience?


Why then the Fremen did not ingest enough of the Spice? They were aware of the power of the Spice. The Spice is abundant.

there are two places I would like to go with it.

Chiggy with it?
No..sorry

One is the above question.
Second question is: What is the Spice Cycle?

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby Tleilax Master B » 20 Feb 2008 15:13

fantomas wrote:Why Does the Fremen not evolve? They're surrounded by Spice.


Because Spice consumption does not cause any change in the inherited traits of one population to the next generation.

Spice causing "mutations" is not the same thing as a "random genetic mutation" which is one way to introduce a new genotype (and resulting phenotype) into a population (migration and "lateral gene transfer" is another). The only way spice would be involved in actual "Evolution" that I can think of is if a random genetic mutation or gene transfer (from another gene pool for example) created a phenotype (physical characteristic) that improved your use or the benefits of spice , and that somehow resulted in you being able to reproduce more viable offspring and increase the frequency of that allele in the population (i.e Natural Selection) OR if by pure probability, Genetic Drift resulted in a random increase of that particular allele frequency in the population. Then you could say spice was somehow involved in evolution (Note that in none of my scenarios did spice cause the evolution)

(Man, I feel like an Evolutionary Biology professor today :D )
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 20 Feb 2008 15:27

Second question is: What is the Spice Cycle?


Sandtrout, the larval stage of worms, are attracted to water and they gather in groups to to encapsulate water they find on the planet. Once they have encapsulated the water they begin to make chemical alterations to the water and produce a pre-spice mass. This process creates a build-up of gases that causes an eruption of the pre-spice mass, blasting carbon dioxide gas, water and melange, out into the open desert. The water evaporates, leaving behind dried spice in the characteristic "spice blow." Incidently, a few of those trout survive the blast and form into cysts which eventually lead to a small worm that will grow up to be shaihulud

(Is that what you were asking fantomas?)
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Postby Mandy » 20 Feb 2008 15:33

Was the average lifespan of the Fremen ever mentioned in any of the books?

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 20 Feb 2008 16:10

Mandy wrote:Was the average lifespan of the Fremen ever mentioned in any of the books?


I think (don't have my .pdf's with me) that they talk about someone who uses the spice regularly can live close to 200 years...but I can't remember anything specifically about the Fremen. With worms, harkonnens, sarduakar, etc. I doubt the "average life span" of the Fremen was that long :wink:
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Postby Mandy » 20 Feb 2008 16:47

Well, the Sarduakar wouldn't have had an effect on their average lifespan since they weren't on Dune for long, and the Harkonnens didn't have any idea how many Fremen there actually were. The biggest threat to their survival was probably the shortage of water they lived with.

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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Feb 2008 19:40

Tleilax Master B wrote:
Second question is: What is the Spice Cycle?


Sandtrout, the larval stage of worms, are attracted to water and they gather in groups to to encapsulate water they find on the planet. Once they have encapsulated the water they begin to make chemical alterations to the water and produce a pre-spice mass. This process creates a build-up of gases that causes an eruption of the pre-spice mass, blasting carbon dioxide gas, water and melange, out into the open desert. The water evaporates, leaving behind dried spice in the characteristic "spice blow." Incidently, a few of those trout survive the blast and form into cysts which eventually lead to a small worm that will grow up to be shaihulud

(Is that what you were asking fantomas?)


The sandtrout grow from sand plankton, which Shai-Hulud eats.

:wink:

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 21 Feb 2008 10:25

Yes, thank you Tleilax Master B

Thanks Freakzilla.

Except, I would have thought that the Fremen would take advantage of the properties of Spice. And as far as the "massive dosage others ingest"

The Fremen are "in the Spice" since their born. I thought that much exposure to Spice and a little more ingested would be enough to mutate the Fremen; Maybe they have built a tolerance.

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Postby SandChigger » 21 Feb 2008 12:14

They all had the blue Eyes of Ibad:

IBAD, EYES OF: characteristic effect of a diet high in melange wherein the whites and pupils of the eyes turn a deep blue (indicative of deep melange addiction).


So they were all addicted to the spice and presumably had a higher tolerance to it than most people.

But still—and this is the important point you seem not to be getting—even the higher concentration they were used to was less than what was needed to cause the spice trance. And even those who underwent the trance did not mutate physically (other than their brains being rewired in some fashion allowing them to access Other Memory) like the Guild Navigators. Which I take to indicate that the exposure experienced by the Navs in their spice gas environment was much, much greater.
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Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 21 Feb 2008 12:29

I got it. 8)

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 21 Feb 2008 13:46

I hope this is from the book. If not, forgive me.

The Spice was in danger. Paul demanded from the Emperor to not land his troops on Dune.

Something to do with Paul sending fremen to gather "changed water" and
placing "it" above ??? Pre Spice Mass? or ??? it will result in a chain reaction that will destroy the Spice. ????

What is this changed water?
What is the sequence of events in the chain reaction that destroys the Spice?

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Postby Mandy » 21 Feb 2008 15:06

A BG acolyte would drink the water of life to induce the Agony, allowing her to become a Reverend Mother and have access to her Other Memory. To survive the test she had to change the Water of Life to make it nonpoisonous. In the Fremen ceremony the new Sayadina would then use some of her saliva to change the Water of Life for everyone so they could join in the ceremony. That is what's referred to as changed water.

I don't remember if Paul was planning to destroy the spice with changed WOL or the actual WOL.. but the Water of Life came from drowning a sandworm. I don't believe it was ever explained exactly how the WOL would destroy all the spice on the planet, just that the reaction would change the WOL into the Water of Death.

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Postby Omphalos » 21 Feb 2008 17:14

IMHO this was the stupidest part of the original novel.

Fantomas, were you above wondering why the Fremen do not mutate like the Guild members mutate?

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Postby SandChigger » 21 Feb 2008 19:32

Omphalos wrote:IMHO this was the stupidest part of the original novel.

I remember going a few rounds on this one. ;)
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Postby Phaedrus » 21 Feb 2008 19:36

Changed Water of Life is poisonous to "little makers," aka sandtrout. Evidently, if you planted the WoL over a pre-spice mass, it would result in a chain reaction that would kill ALL the sandtrout on Arrakis(and probably all the sand-plankton, too, now that I think about it). No sandtrout means no more worms, no sand-plankton means no more food for the worms, so all the worms would be dead pretty quickly.

As to how poisoning one pre-spice mass would start a chain reaction, I have no idea.

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Postby Crysknife » 21 Feb 2008 21:08

Ok, An RM creates a catalyst to change the WoL into a nonpoisonous narcotic substance, i.e. changed spice essence. An RM takes a sip from a bag and using that sip she creates the catalyst which changes it. She then spits the catalyst back into the bag which creates a chain reaction in the remaining WoL and changes it into the non-poisonous substance. If a bag of changed WoL that contained the catalyst were released into the pre-spice mass, the catalyst would ravage the spice cycle and change it into a substance that was unusable to the worms or sandtrout or sandplankton, thus creating a chain reaction across the whole planet, as the catalyst would spread.

:wink:
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Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 09:24

Omphalos wrote:Fantomas, were you above wondering why the Fremen do not mutate like the Guild members mutate?


Yes.

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 09:40

Mandy wrote:A BG acolyte would drink the water of life to induce the Agony, allowing her to become a Reverend Mother and have access to her Other Memory. To survive the test she had to change the Water of Life to make it nonpoisonous. In the Fremen ceremony the new Sayadina would then use some of her saliva to change the Water of Life for everyone so they could join in the ceremony. That is what's referred to as changed water.

I don't remember if Paul was planning to destroy the spice with changed WOL or the actual WOL.. but the Water of Life came from drowning a sandworm. I don't believe it was ever explained exactly how the WOL would destroy all the spice on the planet, just that the reaction would change the WOL into the Water of Death.

Thank you Mandy.

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 09:41

Phaedrus wrote:Changed Water of Life is poisonous to "little makers," aka sandtrout. Evidently, if you planted the WoL over a pre-spice mass, it would result in a chain reaction that would kill ALL the sandtrout on Arrakis(and probably all the sand-plankton, too, now that I think about it). No sandtrout means no more worms, no sand-plankton means no more food for the worms, so all the worms would be dead pretty quickly.

As to how poisoning one pre-spice mass would start a chain reaction, I have no idea.

Thank You Phaedrus.

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 09:43

Crysknife wrote:Ok, An RM creates a catalyst to change the WoL into a nonpoisonous narcotic substance, i.e. changed spice essence. An RM takes a sip from a bag and using that sip she creates the catalyst which changes it. She then spits the catalyst back into the bag which creates a chain reaction in the remaining WoL and changes it into the non-poisonous substance. If a bag of changed WoL that contained the catalyst were released into the pre-spice mass, the catalyst would ravage the spice cycle and change it into a substance that was unusable to the worms or sandtrout or sandplankton, thus creating a chain reaction across the whole planet, as the catalyst would spread.

:wink:

Thank You Crysknife.

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 09:45

[quote="Tleilax Master B
Sandtrout, the larval stage of worms, are attracted to water and they gather in groups to to encapsulate water they find on the planet. Once they have encapsulated the water they begin to make chemical alterations to the water and produce a pre-spice mass. This process creates a build-up of gases that causes an eruption of the pre-spice mass, blasting carbon dioxide gas, water and melange, out into the open desert. The water evaporates, leaving behind dried spice in the characteristic "spice blow." Incidently, a few of those trout survive the blast and form into cysts which eventually lead to a small worm that will grow up to be shaihulud

This is Great!

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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 13 Nov 2008 14:01

Am I remembering something incorrectly - again, I'm coming to this forum a few years since the last time I read these novels in their totality - but didn't Fremen suffer some as they left the planet on Muad'Dib's jihad?

There was no way for them to receive spice in the same quantities - I mean, hell, it must be in the very air on Arrakis - so didn't they suffer withdrawal? Or do we assume there were quantities of spice shipped offworld?
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Postby Freakzilla » 13 Nov 2008 14:21

EsperandoAGodot wrote:Am I remembering something incorrectly - again, I'm coming to this forum a few years since the last time I read these novels in their totality - but didn't Fremen suffer some as they left the planet on Muad'Dib's jihad?

There was no way for them to receive spice in the same quantities - I mean, hell, it must be in the very air on Arrakis - so didn't they suffer withdrawal? Or do we assume there were quantities of spice shipped offworld?


I don't recall that being mentioned. I'm sure they took an adequate ration of spice with them.
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