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    Why does Chani have red hair?

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      Native inhabitants of Arrakis, descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers

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    Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Superdog » 10 Aug 2010 20:39

    That always kinda confused me. She would be 3/4 Arab, right? Red hair would be pretty unusual, considering it is recessive. Just a random thought, and maybe I'm completely missing something.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Aug 2010 20:46

    We discussed this recently actually, the conclusion was that Fremen aren't Arab.

    Also, not sure if you knew this, but red hair isn't just a European thing. I think I've seen Arabs with red hair, and I know for sure that a lot of Indians have dark red hair. I think it might pop up in Australian natives too.

    Also, even if they were mostly Arab, those recessive genes can stick around for a long time. If there was a red head generations back, it can pop up again. (I'm a red head who's half Ukrainian, the red hair on the Uke side is I think 4 or 5 generations back).
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Redstar » 10 Aug 2010 21:24

    Like AToE said, red hair pops up all the time regardless of race or ethnicity. You can go generations with everyone having one hair color then suddenly have a redhead. It's good like that.

    Genghis Khan is thought to have been a redhead with either blue or green eyes (though there's also some "experts" that think he was actually European).
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Aug 2010 21:49

    Language (Arabic) and lifestyle (adapted to desert life) really have nothing to do with ethnicity. Think of all the different ethnic backgrounds of people who now speak English as a native language, many of them without a drop of English blood. ;)

    If we posit something like the explanation in The Dune Encyclopedia for why their Arabic is so little changed from that of our time (i.e., that once their wild Reverend Mothers achieved access to Other Memory, they reeducated the people in the old form of their language and thereafter exercised a regulative effect on it), then we cannot deny that there are Arabs in their ancestry, but it would be very wrong to think of the Fremen as being identical to our Arabs. 450 Herbert-generations (46.5 years?) have probably shuffled the deck pretty thoroughly. (Unless you make some pretty outrageous assumptions; for example, that the people who became the Zensunni were like the Jews and tried to breed only among themselves as much as possible.)
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 11 Aug 2010 09:16

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Also, not sure if you knew this, but red hair isn't just a European thing. I think I've seen Arabs with red hair, and I know for sure that a lot of Indians have dark red hair. I think it might pop up in Australian natives too.


    It was a Neanderthal thing, too, Thing, wasn't it?
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Aug 2010 00:41

    Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Also, not sure if you knew this, but red hair isn't just a European thing. I think I've seen Arabs with red hair, and I know for sure that a lot of Indians have dark red hair. I think it might pop up in Australian natives too.


    It was a Neanderthal thing, too, Thing, wasn't it?


    Rings a bell but I have no real idea. There's that whole can of worms too, is Neanderthal blood my blood, or not? Let's leave them in the can.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Redstar » 12 Aug 2010 00:50

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Also, not sure if you knew this, but red hair isn't just a European thing. I think I've seen Arabs with red hair, and I know for sure that a lot of Indians have dark red hair. I think it might pop up in Australian natives too.


    It was a Neanderthal thing, too, Thing, wasn't it?


    Rings a bell but I have no real idea. There's that whole can of worms too, is Neanderthal blood my blood, or not? Let's leave them in the can.

    Evidence of human/Neanderthal interbreeding
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby inhuien » 12 Aug 2010 04:57

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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Aug 2010 11:03

    Redstar wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Also, not sure if you knew this, but red hair isn't just a European thing. I think I've seen Arabs with red hair, and I know for sure that a lot of Indians have dark red hair. I think it might pop up in Australian natives too.


    It was a Neanderthal thing, too, Thing, wasn't it?


    Rings a bell but I have no real idea. There's that whole can of worms too, is Neanderthal blood my blood, or not? Let's leave them in the can.

    Evidence of human/Neanderthal interbreeding


    Trust me, nothing is clear cut. My girlfriend's teacher was a hybrid supporter and so taught her with that slant, but for all that evidence there are good arguments against it. I find hybridization pretty likely, but I'm not an expert, and remember that as of now, the majority (vast majority as I understand it) still support the no-hybrid side of the argument.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Eyes High » 16 Aug 2010 07:25

    Chani is a red head, because redheads are cool. (just with a hot temper) ;)
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Idwal Brugh » 16 Sep 2010 16:26

    SandChigger wrote:Language (Arabic) and lifestyle (adapted to desert life) really have nothing to do with ethnicity. Think of all the different ethnic backgrounds of people who now speak English as a native language, many of them without a drop of English blood. ;)

    If we posit something like the explanation in The Dune Encyclopedia for why their Arabic is so little changed from that of our time (i.e., that once their wild Reverend Mothers achieved access to Other Memory, they reeducated the people in the old form of their language and thereafter exercised a regulative effect on it), then we cannot deny that there are Arabs in their ancestry, but it would be very wrong to think of the Fremen as being identical to our Arabs. 450 Herbert-generations (46.5 years?) have probably shuffled the deck pretty thoroughly. (Unless you make some pretty outrageous assumptions; for example, that the people who became the Zensunni were like the Jews and tried to breed only among themselves as much as possible.)


    The Fremen chakobsa is NOT Arabic or even a semitic language. The Dune Encyclopedia took a huge and, regrettably, oblvious leap in determining Arabic was their language.

    It's structured like and has similar roots to Romany. The arabic they use appears to be similar to how Arabic is used in Iran or Pakistan- mostly in religiously, but also peppered within the language randomly. Another parallel would be how latin or greek are used within English- mostly as industry specific jargon (legal, clergy, etc.), but also as "anglicized" roots.

    And we definitely cannot deny any present ethnic groups, at least in part, would become Fremen. Absolutely on point there.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Superdog » 16 Sep 2010 19:20

    Just thinking out loud here: even if not descended from Terran Arabs, wouldn't living on Arrakis for several thousands of years wouldn't make them look kind of Arab? Maybe even African?
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2010 00:20

    Superdog wrote:Just thinking out loud here: even if not descended from Terran Arabs, wouldn't living on Arrakis for several thousands of years wouldn't make them look kind of Arab? Maybe even African?


    Depends, probably not because they go out at night and cover themselves completely, so there'd be nothing to select for darker skin.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby SandChigger » 17 Sep 2010 00:27

    Idwal Brugh wrote:The Fremen chakobsa is NOT Arabic or even a semitic language.

    Who ever said it was?

    Chakobsa is NOT Fremen. They're two separate languages. Read the books. Even the McDune idiots get THAT much right.

    The Dune Encyclopedia took a huge and, regrettably, oblvious leap in determining Arabic was their language.

    Yeah, they jumped right over that cliff after they saw Frank Herbert go over it. :roll:

    It's structured like and has similar roots to Romany.

    It also looks a lot like Serbo-Croatian. Funny that, huh?

    I hear Granny Miriam over in the north suk needs some help sucking eggs; maybe you could drop by and show her how it's done?
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby inhuien » 17 Sep 2010 06:16

    Sandchigger, Serbo-Croatian and the Romani tounges are not both classified as Indo-Aryan from my very basic readings. At what level is their cross pollination? I'm assuming there is from your comment above.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby SandChigger » 17 Sep 2010 08:15

    inhuien wrote:Sandchigger, Serbo-Croatian and the Romani tounges are not both classified as Indo-Aryan from my very basic readings. At what level is their cross pollination? I'm assuming there is from your comment above.

    While there may have been some "cross pollination" (lexical exchange?) between the languages when Gypsy groups travelled through that part of Europe, the only mergers of interest here are those that occurred in the mind of Frank Herbert.

    FH obviously put more thought into the Fremen language, but Chakobsa is little more than a few words & phrases that he probably copied almost verbatim from some language texts he had on hand and then supplied his own meanings for. It's not a clearly defined language in any sense.

    In-universe, it's stupid to suggest that Chakobsa is descended from Serbo-Croatian or Romany. It's just a coincidence that the items in our small sample of the language look like words & phrases from those current languages. ;)
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby inhuien » 17 Sep 2010 08:33

    Cheers muchly. :)
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Idwal Brugh » 17 Sep 2010 16:40

    Chakobsa is NOT Fremen. They're two separate languages. Read the books. Even the McDune idiots get THAT much right.


    It's not even a single language, you dolt.


    I hear Granny Miriam over in the north suk needs some help sucking eggs; maybe you could drop by and show her how it's done?
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    Herbert used these cultures as models for the Fremen but one should not look too deeply for historical parallels. For instance, he describes the use of Arabic derivations for the Fremen language primarily as a means of focusing the reader's imagination:

    If you want to give the reader the solid impression that he is not here and now, but that something of here and now has been carried to that faraway place and time, what better way to say to our culture that this is so than to give him the language of that place.. . . That oral tool--it has its own inertial forces; it's mind- shaping as well as used by mind.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2010 16:43

    Yeehaw, we gots ourselves a linguist fight! (figured I'd try a suthrn dialect for that ;) )

    Need to go make some popcorn.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby TheDukester » 17 Sep 2010 17:48

    Idwal Brugh wrote:It's not even a single language, you dolt.

    Don't know who you are ... don't really care that much ... but I thought I'd say "hello" while I had a chance. Because you are about to get your ass handed to you on a plate.

    You've brought a knife to a gun-fight. Never a good idea.

    And now ...

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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby merkin muffley » 17 Sep 2010 23:43

    Idwal Brugh wrote:It's not even a single language, you dolt.


    You might want to check your tone, especially considering that...


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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Tleszer » 18 Sep 2010 00:04

    Not even the mighty :orcs-buttshake: can save you now...
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Sep 2010 02:11

    Idwal Brugh wrote:Lekh tizdayen, ya kus sa'ir!


    English, please.
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby inhuien » 18 Sep 2010 04:20

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Idwal Brugh wrote:Lekh tizdayen, ya kus sa'ir!


    English, please.


    Hebrew perhaps? Why not take a wee sit down and relax I to the B or you could always get tae fuck ya dobber :) , you're choice. :lol:
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    Re: Why does Chani have red hair?

    Postby SandChigger » 18 Sep 2010 11:48

    Idwal Brugh wrote:
    Chakobsa is NOT Fremen. They're two separate languages. Read the books. Even the McDune idiots get THAT much right.


    It's not even a single language, you dolt.

    Huh? Two separate languages are not a single language? I guess that's some profound Kabbalistic insight?

    Lekh tizdayen, ya kus sa'ir!

    Meh, you go fuck yourself, too. Later we can compare notes on who was better. :roll:

    http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/ch03.html

    Herbert used these cultures as models for the Fremen but one should not look too deeply for historical parallels. For instance, he describes the use of Arabic derivations for the Fremen language primarily as a means of focusing the reader's imagination:

    If you want to give the reader the solid impression that he is not here and now, but that something of here and now has been carried to that faraway place and time, what better way to say to our culture that this is so than to give him the language of that place.. . . That oral tool--it has its own inertial forces; it's mind- shaping as well as used by mind.

    I'm sure you thought you had a death-dealing point there. Somewhere?
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