Were the Fremen used

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Blinkered
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Were the Fremen used

Postby Blinkered » 16 May 2011 10:41

Hi all. Sorry if this has been covered before ( I did look).

Just finished Chapterhouse. The last three books were actually way, way better than I thought they would be.

But I have a question, were the Fremen used?

They went from the ultimate warriors, who conquered the universe for the Atreides, to the Museum Fremen, to finally after Dune turned into Rakis, they became a bit more Fremeny due to the enviroment but nothing like they once were.

So, were they just used by the Atreides to set up the Universe for the Golden Path and later a bit of a gene pool?

Any thoughts? Or did I miss something?

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 16 May 2011 10:49

The Fremen were set up by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva to be used. Paul (with Jessica's help) took advantage of that and duped them into following him in exchange for his promise to free them from opression and speed up the ecological transformation.

Paul never saw the Golden Path, at least not the alternative. His immediate use of the Fremen was survival and later revenge and regainign control of Arrakis.

Leto II used them (and the Sardaukar) to crush the civil war that was going on at the time of his ascention.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Blinkered » 16 May 2011 10:57

Ah, actually sounds familiar from the earlier books.

Thanks.

Too much to take in in one blast.

Found the Fremen to be hugely admirable in Dune. They were the dogs.

Now, I actually felt a pang of pity.

Too soft at heart.

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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 May 2011 12:57

Oh no, don't feel bad about feeling bad for them. You think FH put those museum Fremen into GEoD thinking it would do anything other than depress the living shit out of the reader?! Man, I was seriously CRUSHED the first time I read that book and saw what had became of them.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Blinkered » 16 May 2011 13:24

Like the American Indians.
Not that I know any.
Just look at the past and now.

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 May 2011 13:39

Blinkered wrote:Like the American Indians.
Not that I know any.
Just look at the past and now.


You mean in the sense that they're a shadow of what they once were? Then yes, similarities abound.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby SandRider » 16 May 2011 17:40

yes, you are correct, in one way, that the Fremen were "used" by Paul, for his personal revenge on the
Harkonnens & the Emperor ... they were "used" by Pardot Kynes, for his personal experiments ... I think
Freak would re-word his answer a bit - "set up" as in "prepared for exploitation", and not "set up" as in
"created by" the Bene Gesserit ... there were other reasons to keep the "Museum Fremen" that I can't
recall off the top of my head right now, but the reason that sticks with me is the effect they had on the
Duncans ...

welcome to Frank Herbert's Dune ... it's the things like this that have kept us talking about
these books for years and years ... as opposed to the McDune being mass-produced now ...
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby D Pope » 17 May 2011 00:49

From my first reading, I have had trouble imagining what it would be like to be an avarage fellow in the Duniverse. There are pale echoes all around, office politics, cops abusing authority, petty little backstabbings and powerplays among children, muted by a thin veil of civility. Compared to Dune, we're a hundred miles from that line that says 'do not cross' and just on the other side live the Fremen. I agree with 'Riders summation; "prepared."
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 17 May 2011 10:23

Set up to accept a messiah figure and his BG mother, like they prepared all "primitive" civilizations.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby trang » 21 May 2011 13:49

Exploited for sure, via there own legends, which the BG MP set in motion. in Dune, and evermore deeper on thru to GEOD.

Hunted, enslaved, slaughtered, for what? 80 years, I dont think the fremen needed much tipping over on the
Harkonen issue.
"Long Live the Fighters", "Dragon.....the other white meat."

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Superdog » 21 May 2011 22:48

I wouldn't feel too bad for the Fremen. They did kill 800 kajillion people after all.

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 22 May 2011 09:06

41 billion in the Jihad, I believe.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby SandRider » 24 May 2011 11:09

hey, Freak, I was just being nitpicky with your phrasing, because it
could be read to mean that the Fremen were "created" by the
Witches for their Own Purposes ...

The Fremen were set up by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva to be used.


I actually just went to an online dictionary in another tab,
because I just couldn't come up with the words for what I
was meaning, and y'all note that I did this in accordance with
my own sietch rules, because I actually give a damn about
what I post ....

set up
1. To place in an upright position.
2.
a. To elevate; raise.
b. To raise in authority or power; invest with power: They set the general up as a dictator.
c. To put (oneself) forward as; claim to be: He has set himself up as an authority on the English language.
d. To assemble and erect: set up a new machine.
3. To establish; found: set up a charity.
4. To cause: They set up howls of protest over new taxes.
5. To establish in business by providing capital, equipment, or other backing.
6. Informal
a. To treat (someone) to drinks.
b. To pay for (drinks).
7. Informal To stimulate or exhilarate: a victory that really set the team up.
8. To lay plans for: set up a kidnapping.
9. Informal To put (someone else) into a compromising situation by deceit or trickery: Swindlers have set me up.
10. Sports To make a pass to (a teammate), creating a scoring opportunity



if "set up the Fremen" is read with defintion #1, "to establish",
that definitely would give the wrong impression, and I guess I'm
fixated on this thinking about the offworlders wandering around ...
you & I know that the Witches planted their seeds all over the
empire from their beginnings, but if someone if just starting to get
into this, even if they've read, like, the first three books, I could
see it not being out of their realm of possibility to think that the
Witches actually founded or "created" tribes, or races, or
whatever, for their own purposes (they are selectively
breeding folks, right ?)

definition 8 & 9 is more what Freak meant, and what the truth is,
all of which plays back to the topic - were the Fremen used ?
I think "exploited" is a good word ... but "used" also implies that
they were "used" to achieve someone's else's goals and then tossed
aside, "used up" ...


(posting this on My Idiot's Brother 10 year old XP machine with
what I believe to be IE5 ... no spelchek, so if I have missed one,
it is because I have grown accustomed to the Machine doing my
Thinking ...)
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Visigoth » 30 May 2011 11:51

SandRider wrote:... I have grown accustomed to the Machine doing my
Thinking ...)


:shhh:
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby unholyalmond » 02 Jun 2011 06:24

Hey all. new to the forum, this is my first post. Could not help but point this out. I may be mistaken, and if so please correct me.


Freakzilla wrote:Paul never saw the Golden Path, at least not the alternative.


When Leto 2 and paul sat on the dune together, did paul not say "Do you not think that muad'dib did not see what it is that you want to do? Do you think that muad'dib did not confront the possiblity?" ? Then Leto responded with "Muad'dib was afraid.".

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby SandRider » 02 Jun 2011 14:28

When Leto 2 and paul sat on the dune together, did paul not say "Do you not think that muad'dib did not see what it is that you want to do? Do you think that muad'dib did not confront the possiblity?" ? Then Leto responded with "Muad'dib was afraid.".

(this one needs The Files, naib)

The Preacher sighed deeply. "How far has it gone, this thing you've done to yourself?"
"My skin is not my own, father."

"You cannot do this!" The Preacher hissed.
"I've already done it. My skin is not my own."
"Perhaps it's not too late for you to --"
"It is too late."

"When I heard . . ." The Preacher began. And again: "You cannot do this!"
"I am doing it. What matter if you're made blind once more?"
"You think I fear that?"


"You cannot control the future," The Preacher whispered ..... "You must not! You must not!"

Leto looked up to the top of the dune where his father stood, still defiant,
but defeated. That was Paul Muad'Dib up there, blind, angry, near despair as a
consequence of his flight from the vision which Leto had accepted. Paul's mind
would be reflecting now upon the Zensunni Long Koan: "In the one act of
predicting an accurate future, Muad'Dib introduced an element of development and
growth into the very prescience through which he saw human existence. By this,
he brought uncertainty onto himself. Seeking the absolute of orderly prediction,
he amplified disorder, distorted prediction."


Paul confronted his son then, aiming the eyeless sockets at Leto. "Do you really know
the universe you have created here?"
Leto heard the particular emphasis. The vision which both of them knew had
been set into terrible motion here had required an act of creation at a certain
point in time.

..... he no longer could see how Leto might manipulate the
reins, could only recognize the inhuman consequences which Leto had accepted.
And he thought: Here is the change for which I prayed. Why do I fear it? Because
it's the Golden Path!

"I'm here to give purpose to evolution and, therefore, to give purpose to our lives," Leto said.
"Do you wish to live those thousands of years, changing as you now know you will change?"

"This is your universe now," Paul said.
The words filled with defeat cut through Leto. Paul had tried to guide the
last strands of a personal vision, a choice he'd made years before in Sietch
Tabr.

"I'll take the vision away from you if I can."
"Thousands of peaceful years," Leto said. "That's what I'll give them."
"Dormancy! Stagnation!"
"Of course. And those forms of violence which I permit. It'll be a lesson which humankind will never forget."
"I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you choose?"
"You saw it," Leto agreed.
"Is your vision any better than mine?"
"Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps," Leto said.

"Will you take back your hawk ring?" Leto asked.
Paul sat down suddenly on the sand, a dark blotch in the starlight. "No!"
So he knows the futility of that path, Leto thought. This revealed much, but
not enough. The contest of the visions had moved from its delicate plane of
choices down to a gross discarding of alternates. Paul knew he could not win,
but he hoped yet to nullify that single vision to which Leto clung.


"And are you a good Fremen?"
"Yes."
"Will you permit a blind man to go into the desert finally? Will you let me find peace on my own terms?"
He pounded the sand beside him.
"No, I'll not permit that," Leto said. "But it's your right to fall upon your knife if you insist upon it."
"And you would have my body!"
"True."
"No!"
And so he knows that path, Leto thought. The enshrining of Muad'Dib's body
by his son could be contrived as a form of cement for Leto's vision.
"You never told them, did you, father?" Leto asked.
"I never told them."
"But I told them," Leto said. "I told Muriz. Kralizec, the Typhoon Struggle."
Paul's shoulders sagged. "You cannot," he whispered. "You cannot."
"I am a creature of this desert now, father," Leto said. "Would you speak thus to a Coriolis storm?"
"You think me coward for refusing that path," Paul said, his voice husky and trembling. "Oh, I understand you well, son.
Augury and haruspication have always been their own torments. But I was never lost in the possible futures because this
one is unspeakable!"
"Your Jihad will be a summer picnic on Caladan by comparison," Leto agreed.


{Augury: prophetic divining of the future by observation of natural phenomena—particularly the behavior of birds
and animals and the examination of their entrails and other parts, but also by scrutiny of man-made objects and situations.}
{Haruspication: a form of divination from lightning and other natural phenomena, but especially from inspection
of the entrails of animal sacrifices. Also called extispicy.}



"If I'd chosen your way, I'd have become the bicouros of shaitan. What will you become?"
"For a time they'll call me the missionary of shaitan, too," Leto said. "Then they'll begin to wonder and, finally,
they'll understand. You didn't take your vision far enough, father. Your hands did good things and evil."
"But the evil was known after the event!"
"Which is the way of many great evils," Leto said. "You crossed over only into a part of my vision. Was your
strength not enough?"
"You know I couldn't stay there. I could never do an evil act which was known before the act. I'm not Jacurutu."
He clambered to his feet. "Do you think me one of those who laughs alone at night?"
"It is sad that you were never really Fremen," Leto said. "We Fremen know how to commission the arifa.
Our judges can choose between evils. It's always been that way for us."
"Fremen, is it? Slaves of the fate you helped to make?"


"Ahhhh, that is your own flesh yet," he said. "Where will that flesh take you?"
"Into a place where humans may create their futures from instant to instant."
"So you say. An Abomination might say the same."


"I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth
of his son's vision. "I did not see that among the choices."

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jun 2011 00:20

I believe Paul may have seen the possibility of metamorphisis but not the end of humanity that it would prevent. Without that, to Paul the GP was just being cruel to teach humanity a lesson. His aristocratic upbringing would not allow him to be cruel for it's own sake.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby distrans » 13 Jan 2013 20:56

i always read it to mean paul did see the end of humanity
and even still
the price which the transformation would require of him was to much

ultimately saving humanities existance wasnt reward enough to make the sacrifice


i think the different manner in which paul and leto gained master over their other memories best explains the substance of their differnt choices given understanding of the same insite

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Jan 2013 21:51

You've always read it wrong. :wink:

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."

"I believe the Sisterhood suspects it," Leto said. "I cannot accept any
other explanation of my grandmother's decision."

~Children of Dune
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby distrans » 13 Jan 2013 23:11

i see now.

ok,
so this alludes to jessica seeing the golden path before leto does
and paul seeing a reason to enter the transformation other than saving humanity

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby distrans » 13 Jan 2013 23:18

that really ties up alot of lose ends

paul never saw arafel
explains why he sat idle as the monstrosity depicted in messiah was pieced together over all those years
exlained why the prophet was so hobbled and ultimately controlled and manipulated

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Jan 2013 08:56

distrans wrote:so this alludes to jessica seeing the golden path before leto does...


Well, the BG WERE the ones who bred him for that purpose. But I don't think Jessica had all the details, she was probably manipulated by them, too.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 14 Jan 2013 13:25

Freakzilla wrote:
distrans wrote:so this alludes to jessica seeing the golden path before leto does...


Well, the BG WERE the ones who bred him for that purpose. But I don't think Jessica had all the details, she was probably manipulated by them, too.


Oh, everyone manipulates each other in Dune. Even the Fremen try to manipulate Paul to become the messianic figure they expected him to be, which is one who acts completely in accordance to Fremen law, especially the more harsh Fremen laws such as sending blind men to the deep desert. You would have thought that sending hordes of Fremen across the universe to strike at the disbelievers would be enough for the Fremen, but their disappoinment in him for not being the pure ideal Fremen messiah was enough for some to get involved in the conspiracy against him. They probably figured out that Paul was using them just for personal vengeance and glory, and only thought against him once they were dissatisfied with the aftermath of the whole jihad.

As for the Bene Gesserit manipulating Jessica, that makes me wonder how thoroughly the Bene Gesserit speculated about which course the future would take, and how many of their speculations were accurate. You don't get to be immersed in the workings of the Bene Gesserit community till Heretics and Chapterhouse, which makes me all the more curious as to what the meetings between Jessica and her Sisterhood were about in Children. The Bene Gesserit certainly didn't expect Paul's reemergence in the last part of Dune, all because Mohiam didn't think it was worth mentioning to her Sisterhood (according to the appendices). Or did they secretly expect something like this to happen without Mohiam's knowledge? Or not.

Until I get to be tested with my hand in the box of pain, I'm not allowed to access Bene Gesserit secrets for the betterment of Dune fanatics.
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby distrans » 15 Jan 2013 20:36

there really isnt a kind word about the BG until leto decides not to eliminate them


did we ever get a picture of what the bene gesserit would have done with a compliant KW?

i dont remember it.

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 16 Jan 2013 00:46

distrans wrote:there really isnt a kind word about the BG until leto decides not to eliminate them


did we ever get a picture of what the bene gesserit would have done with a compliant KW?

i dont remember it.


It's interesting that you mentioned it, because I've pondered a similar question, and even brought it up before some time ago with the elders of Jacurutu. What would life be the Bene Gesserit be like with a compliant Kwisatz Haderach? I speculated that perhaps the presence of a Kwisatz Haderach might make it easier for the Sisterhood to stop sleeping with inept Landsraad men for their bloodlines, and probably have more vacation hours. An opposite speculation I've been given is that the BG would keep things generally the same, except the balance of power and the universe's economy would be stabilized through the help of the Kwisatz Haderach. Getting an easily controllable superboy to deal with the core instability of the Houses of the Landsraad is pretty much their main intention, though it makes me wonder how the BG expect their messianic stud to successfully deal with multitude of corrupt opposing forces in their favor, when the novel's unpredictable KW (i.e. Mua'dib) needed legions of many Fremen warriors, atomics, and a whole bunch of huge worms in a feeding frenzy, as well as total control over the fate of Arrakis' ecology and spice resources, in order to bring Shaddam IV and everyone else at his mercy. Even though the KW has great power, he's still very much limited, and needs the backing of overzealous fanatical followers to get something going. Perhaps they didn't expect this dilemma?
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky


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