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    Were the Fremen used

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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Freakzilla » 16 Jan 2013 07:45

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:
    distrans wrote:there really isnt a kind word about the BG until leto decides not to eliminate them


    did we ever get a picture of what the bene gesserit would have done with a compliant KW?

    i dont remember it.


    It's interesting that you mentioned it, because I've pondered a similar question, and even brought it up before some time ago with the elders of Jacurutu. What would life be the Bene Gesserit be like with a compliant Kwisatz Haderach? I speculated that perhaps the presence of a Kwisatz Haderach might make it easier for the Sisterhood to stop sleeping with inept Landsraad men for their bloodlines, and probably have more vacation hours. An opposite speculation I've been given is that the BG would keep things generally the same, except the balance of power and the universe's economy would be stabilized through the help of the Kwisatz Haderach. Getting an easily controllable superboy to deal with the core instability of the Houses of the Landsraad is pretty much their main intention, though it makes me wonder how the BG expect their messianic stud to successfully deal with multitude of corrupt opposing forces in their favor, when the novel's unpredictable KW (i.e. Mua'dib) needed legions of many Fremen warriors, atomics, and a whole bunch of huge worms in a feeding frenzy, as well as total control over the fate of Arrakis' ecology and spice resources, in order to bring Shaddam IV and everyone else at his mercy. Even though the KW has great power, he's still very much limited, and needs the backing of overzealous fanatical followers to get something going. Perhaps they didn't expect this dilemma?


    If Paul or 'Paulette', as the BG intended, would have married into the Corrino family he/she would have the Sardaukar and the armies of whatever houses were aligned with them.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 16 Jan 2013 17:27

    If Paul or 'Paulette', as the BG intended, would have married into the Corrino family he/she would have the Sardaukar and the armies of whatever houses were aligned with them.


    I thought Paulette was intended to marry and mate with Feyd Rautha. Remember when Mohiam told Jessica that it was their intention to breed her daughter with the Harkonnen heir?

    An Atreides daughter could've been wed to a Harkonnen heir and sealed the breach.


    She also claimed the daughter could bring the Atreides and Harkonnens closer together, but that never would've happened anyway (not so long as the Baron keeps scaring his guests by hovering right above them). Besides which, Shaddam IV doesn't have any sons, and I'm not quite sure if Paulette would be allowed to marry Irulan, unless you're suggesting that Paulette was also intended to marry Shaddam IV himself? To think that Paul made bitter enemies with the two very men he might've lived happily with if he were a woman (I guess).

    Having Paulette mary Shaddam would complicate things for the BG. Since Paulette became Paul, an alliance with the Corrinos early on would've been a smart move. If that was all the BG needed to do to makes things easier for themselves, why didn't they try to influence the Emperor into sparing House Atreides and considering Paul as a formidable son in law? Of course, Mohiam never told her BG sisters about her discovery, and by abandoning Paul and Jessica for dead, she lost the BG's biggest prize to a collective of the most extremely angry desert warriors the Landsraad had ever pissed off. Why did she conceal what she knew about Paul? Too embarassed by Jessica's defiance to mention her son to the Sisterhood? Or did she realized that Paul would not be under BG control? Either way, it seems that she might've hoped that the Harkonnens would've killed them both, didn't think they would survive with the help of BG missionary protective in the Fremen sietches. Thanks a lot, Mohiam.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jan 2013 07:54

    Actually, the Kwizats Haderach wasn't expected for another generation. Paulette and Feyd's child, let's call him Leto. Then he marries into the Corrino Family...
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby distrans » 17 Jan 2013 08:45

    there had to have been several other parallel breeding lines near to producing viable KW's at the same time as dune kicks off
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jan 2013 08:51

    Possibly :confusion-shrug:
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby inhuien » 17 Jan 2013 10:18

    distrans wrote:there had to have been several other parallel breeding lines near to producing viable KW's at the same time as dune kicks off

    Not necessary, there were other candidates who tried and died. This was the culmination of generations of breeding if Paul was one of many why didn't they pop another one out.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby distrans » 17 Jan 2013 10:51

    you referenence ones who attempted the agony before they were able
    those are history lessons
    not to be confused with jessica's children

    nor the children of the parallel breeding lines their order was overseeing

    i mean common,
    you dont actually think that attredies was the single gene line exibiting conscious predictive traits do you?
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby lotek » 17 Jan 2013 11:49

    Fenring was a failed KH, so maybe that could work as another breeding line.
    But then again, aristocrats have a reputation of inbreeding so maybe his line is not so far off.

    I would have thought though, that considering the time and effort put into the Breeding Program, and the difficulty to manipulate bloodlines, that whatever parallel lines would have been weeded out after a while.
    Pyramid style, you start with a lot but you aim for just one, slowly ditching whoever doesn't fit.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby distrans » 17 Jan 2013 17:42

    given a pyramid, there should have been at least one woman who popped out a paulette at the same time that jessica went rogue.

    there should have been several half pint BG witches to keep feyd busy
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Jan 2013 07:28

    I'm sure Lady Margot seducing Feyd was their parallel breeding program.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby inhuien » 18 Jan 2013 07:41

    distrans wrote:you referenence ones who attempted the agony before they were able
    those are history lessons
    not to be confused with jessica's children

    nor the children of the parallel breeding lines their order was overseeing

    i mean common,
    you dont actually think that attredies was the single gene line exibiting conscious predictive traits do you?


    Did I say that, I sure they had contingencies, but none that were close to completion. The point is however moot as there were no of KH outside of the Atreides bloodline.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby lotek » 18 Jan 2013 09:15

    distrans wrote:given a pyramid, there should have been at least one woman who popped out a paulette at the same time that jessica went rogue.

    there should have been several half pint BG witches to keep feyd busy


    Maybe I should have said arborescence ?
    Like many branches to start with, but the closer you get to the unique end the less alternate paths are available.

    So Lady Fenring bonking Feyd could be like loading an old save after a power cut.

    KH are not a dime a dozen.
    Unless they have faceted circus eyes.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby inhuien » 18 Jan 2013 10:35

    lotek wrote:
    distrans wrote:given a pyramid, there should have been at least one woman who popped out a paulette at the same time that jessica went rogue.

    there should have been several half pint BG witches to keep feyd busy


    Maybe I should have said arborescence ?
    Like many branches to start with, but the closer you get to the unique end the less alternate paths are available.

    So Lady Fenring bonking Feyd could be like loading an old save after a power cut.

    KH are not a dime a dozen.
    Unless they have faceted circus eyes.

    Good post but I Hayted the close. :)
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 18 Jan 2013 15:19

    Freakzilla wrote:Actually, the Kwizats Haderach wasn't expected for another generation. Paulette and Feyd's child, let's call him Leto. Then he marries into the Corrino Family...


    You're absolutely right, Freak the Great One. Of course Paulette's child with Feyd would be the one to marry into the Corrinos, but with whom? One of the daughters (who would have to be much much older), or with one of the daughters' daughter? That's a mystery for another day...

    inhuien wrote:
    lotek wrote:
    distrans wrote:given a pyramid, there should have been at least one woman who popped out a paulette at the same time that jessica went rogue.

    there should have been several half pint BG witches to keep feyd busy


    Maybe I should have said arborescence ?
    Like many branches to start with, but the closer you get to the unique end the less alternate paths are available.

    So Lady Fenring bonking Feyd could be like loading an old save after a power cut.

    KH are not a dime a dozen.
    Unless they have faceted circus eyes.

    Good post but I Hayted the close. :)


    Oh, I say, inhuien! That was a delightfully droll response to a delightfully droll speculation!... Excuse me for sounding like a silly Enlgish gentleman, but I couldn't resist. :)
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby inhuien » 18 Jan 2013 15:26

    Sir, it was my pleasure and privilege to have facilitated such verbosity.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby distrans » 18 Jan 2013 15:32

    im not quite sure
    what just happened
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Naïve mind » 18 Jan 2013 15:35

    Freakzilla wrote:I'm sure Lady Margot seducing Feyd was their parallel breeding program.


    I think they had many more, and probably actively tracked and manipulated thousands of parallel blood lines--just none of them as far advanced as the Atreides. Some of them more advanced, but they turned out to be duds, like Fenring. I recall that even the Emperor was said to have the sight.

    I think this is one of the things that necessitated the Golden Path. In refining the human strain to find the Kwisatz Haderach, the Bene Gesserit bred the traits for male prescience and inner vision into many more people than they could control. Any one of these families might give birth to a prodigy, and every one of these prodigies might have the ability to hold humankind in a vise-like grip.

    After a few of these ... children, who in their right mind would argue that human intelligence was less terrifying than machine intelligence? Enter the Ixians, machine prescience, Arafel.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby inhuien » 18 Jan 2013 15:39

    distrans wrote:im not quite sure
    what just happened

    And therein lies the truth.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jan 2013 17:02

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Actually, the Kwizats Haderach wasn't expected for another generation. Paulette and Feyd's child, let's call him Leto. Then he marries into the Corrino Family...


    You're absolutely right, Freak the Great One. Of course Paulette's child with Feyd would be the one to marry into the Corrinos, but with whom? One of the daughters (who would have to be much much older), or with one of the daughters' daughter? That's a mystery for another day...


    Farad'n
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Naïve mind » 23 Jan 2013 01:26

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:You're absolutely right, Freak the Great One. Of course Paulette's child with Feyd would be the one to marry into the Corrinos, but with whom? One of the daughters (who would have to be much much older), or with one of the daughters' daughter? That's a mystery for another day...


    Farad'n


    Not sure that would've been possible for the royal family. We know that the unwashed masses are very keen on children being conceived naturally, and two men wouldn't be able to conceive a child (and prolong the line) without some assistance.

    On the other hand, apparently there was nothing wrong with letting a concubine bear your heirs, so ...
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby distrans » 23 Jan 2013 03:32

    nor was it telling her to give the lieutenant who carrried your pack home for you
    a blow job


    that is how they instructed the women of course
    " your responsibility is to the imperium! and if your lucky, you find a husband
    who fate falls in line"
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Jan 2013 07:53

    Oh yeah, the KH WOULD have to be male, huh? :doh:

    Still, all Shaddam's daughters were BG, I'm sure he had grandaughters.
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby distrans » 24 Jan 2013 02:59

    you really going to address my question with the suggestion that im sexist?!??!?!?
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby inhuien » 24 Jan 2013 05:19

    Where did you get that from, and are you sexist. I can admit to not interacting completely the same with males and females, Are you incapable of such honesty or do you just get a kick from being a prick sometimes?
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    Re: Were the Fremen used

    Postby lotek » 24 Jan 2013 07:02

    distrans wrote:you really going to address my question with the suggestion that im sexist?!??!?!?


    are you?

    EDIT TO ADD

    Is being a prick considered being sexist?
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