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    The C.E.T. meets in Hawai'i. Deal with it.

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    The C.E.T. meets in Hawai'i. Deal with it.

    Postby SandChigger » 17 Feb 2008 13:46

    So...are we all in agreement that they meet in Hawai'i? ;)


    (Edited 12/21/08: Title changed from simply "The Commission of Ecumenical Translators". Because the world is full of idiots. —SC)
    Last edited by SandChigger on 21 Dec 2008 08:47, edited 1 time in total.
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    Postby Omphalos » 17 Feb 2008 15:12

    Your post was like a slap in the fucking face, I cant believe I missed that for so long. One thing I have to say though, I HATE poetry, so that is my excuse. Why dont you repost the thread here for comment?
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    Postby Simon » 17 Feb 2008 16:47

    it would help :lol:
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    Re: The Commission of Ecumenical Translators

    Postby Tleilax Master B » 17 Feb 2008 17:10

    SandChigger wrote:So...are we all in agreement that they meet in Hawai'i? ;)


    Yes, but I prefer to call them the "Old Cranks" :)
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    Postby SandChigger » 17 Feb 2008 20:28

    Here's the link to the thread on DN for now:

    http://www.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1598

    I'm cleaning a copy of the entire thread for reposting here, so hang on a bit....
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby SandChigger » 17 Feb 2008 20:57

    And that C.E.T. "neutral island" is...(drum roll).
       
    SandChigger

    Jeez...can this have been any more obvious? Hasn't anyone noticed this before?

    (FH in the Religion Appendix of Dune) wrote:Troubadours composed witty, biting songs about the one hundred and twenty-one "Old Cranks" as the C.E.T. delegates came to be called. (The name arose from a ribald joke which played on the C.E.T. initials and called the delegates "Cranks-Effing-Turners.") One of the songs, "Brown Repose," has undergone periodic revival and is popular even today:

    "Consider leis.
    Brown repose—and
    The tragedy
    In all of those
    Cranks! All those Cranks!
    So laze—so laze
    Through all your days.
    Time has toll'd for
    M'Lord Sandwich!"

    Um...Leis, people? Brown repose? A toll (atoll?) for Lord Sandwich? (Yeah, that last's a bit of a stretch...but then again....) Lazing through the days...those damned lucky Pacific Island Types!

    Any reason NOT to think that the location intended is the Sandwich Islands? AKA Hawai'i?

    What would be so witty about including those references if the CET meeting was on Crete, Madagascar, or the Isle of Man, for example?

    chanilover

    Would Hawaii have sunk by then? I remember seeing maps on the wall in school of the continents shifting so I wonder what the Earth would look like in 11,000 years time (is that when the Butlerian Jihad is due?)

    SandChigger

    Nah, 11~13,000 years is nothing in geological time. (I think the oldest island is supposed to be something like 5 million years old; they get younger as you move south-east down the archipelago, with Hawai'i itself being the youngest, with still active volcanoes.)

    The islands sit pretty much right in the middle of the Pacific plate, so they're not going to "sink" for a long time...they might erode away before that? Anyway, as soon as one island moves far enough away from the "hot spot" below, a new one forms....

    Too bad it wasn't Bali Hai...all those great songs...

    Freakzilla

    I thought the Hawaiian Islands were still growing.

    The tectonic plate is moving to the Northwest while the hotspot that creates the volcanoes remanes stationary, periodically creating new volcanoes. This is why only the SW islands are still active.

    In the distant future there will be more islands.

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    Omphalos

    Freakzilla wrote:I thought the Hawaiian Islands were still growing.

    The tectonic plate is moving to the Northwest while the hotspot that creates the volcanoes remanes stationary, periodically creating new volcanoes. This is why only the SW islands are still active.

    In the distant future there will be more islands.

    Yea, I was gonna say I would think with all theunderground volcanic activity that more land would build up by then.

    Great eye, Sandchigger. I never would have put that together.

    And didnt FH live for some time in Hawaii? Or like to go there for family vacations?

    Joe 90

    I try not to get too exercised about differences in the traditions handed down over millenia (JRRT's explanation for discrepancies) but I have been idly wondering how the CET met on an island of old Earth when the timing seems to indicate it was not very long after the Earth was comprehensively nuked by the Jihad.

    Maybe in a time of long established space travel island might mean orbiting facility?

    Or did I miss something?

    Freakzilla

    Joe 90 wrote:I try not to get too exercised about differences in the traditions handed down over millenia (JRRT's explanation for discrepancies) but I have been idly wondering how the CET met on an island of old Earth when the timing seems to indicate it was not very long after the Earth was comprehensively nuked by the Jihad.

    Maybe in a time of long established space travel island might mean orbiting facility?

    Or did I miss something?

    No, you didn't miss anything, I think the authors missed it.

    Don't worry though, if it's not explained in Sandworms or the official FAQ after that, they will probably write an 1,800 page trilogy about it and explain it all. Or like other issues, they could simply state that they found notes to the contrary of FHs published works and this is what he really meant to write.

    SandChigger

    Hey, Joe.

    JRRT was referring to discrepancies found in his own works, right? This is a potential discrepancy introduced by later writers. (If they say "But it's in the Notes!" then I say "Prove it.")

    The bombardment took place at the beginning of the Jihad. According to the timeline on this site (emphasis added):

    200 B.G.

    Using atomics, the League wipes out the thinking machines of Earth. The nuclear attack renders Earth uninhabitable for centuries. [The Butlerian Jihad]

    No definite date is given for the C.E.T. meeting on Earth, but based on the Religion appendix it has to take place early in the A.G. period.

    Joe 90 wrote:Maybe in a time of long established space travel island might mean orbiting facility?

    Sure...that seems reasonable and makes perfect sense, doesn't it? But it's not what the text says and there is absolutely nothing in the passage or elsewhere which would support such a reading. Particularly if you take the song into consideration. (Or was the songwriter just playing off the old allusions of "island"? Why the reference to Lord Sandwich then? Who's going to remember Lord Sandwich in 13,000 years? Especially after all the databases are gone.)

    Sorry—and I don't mean this against you personally—but it was a silly idea when Zeus or whoever first suggested it and it's a silly idea now.

    And probably very close to what they'll go with.

    Joe 90

    No worries Chigger, this is something I do to occupy my brain while eating, it's not important.

    In fact after watching a recording of the Jeremy Clarkson programme about the St Nazaire raid last night, I don't think anything I ever did was very important! I knew the basic story but, like his similar programme about Arnhem, the testimony of the veterans makes me feel very small and ready to cry!

    [BEGIN SECTION OF SOLE MAN BASHING]

    Sole man (Post subject: On what-the-Frig is this about?)

    Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?

    guildnavigator

    Read the thread. They are discussing whether or not hawaii would exist 10000 years from now. They are talking about this because an island is mentioned that the CET met on in Dune, is suggested to be Hawaii. Thats your explanation.

    SandChigger

    Sole man wrote:Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?

    Read much?

    (And you don't know me well enough to call me "Hun". ONLY ChiggerBint currently holds that honor.)

    Tleilax Master B

    Sole man wrote:Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?

    You're wrong. You have officially been corrected

    Omphalos

    Tleilax Master B wrote:
    Sole man wrote:Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?

    You're wrong. You have officially been corrected

    It would be much easier to tell him when he is right. But then we would be silent.

    chanilover

    Yet another anal grunt from Sloey. Why hasn't he called someone an idiot?

    Joe 90

    No, my ramble about St Nazaire had nothing to do with Dune other putting our Dune ramblings in perspective. Sorry and all that!

    SandChigger

    I really don't think that was what Sloe Thang was on about. Don't worry about it, eh!

    Tleilax Master B

    Seriously, Joe, you can pretty much blatantly disregard anything that comes from Sloe Man. Soon, we will all be called old farts and idiots. Once that happens, you have officially been accepted into the brotherhood of Dune fans on this site

    Eru

    Tleilax Master B wrote:Seriously, Joe, you can pretty much blatantly disregard anything that comes from Sloe Man. Soon, we will all be called old farts and idiots. Once that happens, you have officially been accepted into the brotherhood of Dune fans on this site

    I've always said, the villiage idiot is an intregral to our society! Here, he is a part of our hazing rituals. But, Joe's not accepted until he "responds" appropriately against the Sloester. That is a very important part of the hazing.

    Omphalos

    Joe 90 wrote:No, my ramble about St Nazaire had nothing to do with Dune other putting our Dune ramblings in perspective. Sorry and all that!

    Actually, Im pretty sure he wasnt even responding to you. He just read the first post and decided to be an a$$ and ask what Hawaii has to do with Dune. Not like we can expect him to read a whole thread, as that may make his little head hurt too much.

    [END SOLE MAN BASHING]

    nessus7487

    I think if youre going to compare the Butlerian Jihad in the LEgends series with Frank's statements in the appendicies youre going to be frustrated. The evolution of the major schools as well as the changes in religon and descriptions of the Jihad are completely different.

    Bridge of Hrethgir anyone?

    Omphalos

    Here's a new one! ABANDON ALL LOGIC, YE WHO ENTER THESE 8 NEW BOOKS!
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby SandChigger » 17 Feb 2008 21:03

    So there it is. I snipped out the post timestamps and user info (no. of posts, location, etc).

    I left in the section of Sole man bashing out of nostalgia.... ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby chanilover » 18 Feb 2008 15:34

    Sloey should come on over here, I grew to quite like him.
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    Postby Tyrant Worm » 19 Feb 2008 11:43

    The whole Hawaii thing seems fairly resonable to me. Can't believe I never noticed that before! Well done good sir!
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    Postby SandChigger » 19 Feb 2008 12:08

    Well, there's a reason behind pointing this out, of course. 8)

    To wit:

    HOW IN FOCH'S NAME CAN THE C.E.T. MEET ON AN ISLAND OF OLD EARTH AFTER THE POST-JIHAD RELIGIOUS RIOTS IF THE FRICKING PLANET WAS FRIED WITH ATOMICS?! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

    Ahem. :D

    I'm sure they (meaning Kevin) will pull some mucus-slick rationalization out of their steaming writer holes, but this was simply a stupid, stupid oversight.

    By the two biggest fans of Dune in the world. Amen.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby Tyrant » 19 Feb 2008 14:50

    SandChigger wrote:I'm sure they (meaning Kevin) will pull some mucus-slick rationalization out of their steaming writer holes, but this was simply a stupid, stupid oversight.

    By the two biggest fans of Dune in the world. Amen.


    lol..right..the 2 biggest dune fans...its sad...that i know more about dune than 2 dune authors
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    Postby Fantômas » 19 Feb 2008 15:46

    It shows you care about Dune.
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    Postby SandChigger » 19 Feb 2008 20:04

    fantomas wrote:It shows you care about Dune.

    :D

    Pity more people don't see it that way, huh?
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    Postby inhuien » 20 Feb 2008 06:14

    It's a pity more people don't truly care about dune, I wonder what folk would say if I drew a pair of big fake titties on the Mona Lisa complete with a 'tash :x . moooooooo

    and relax...ooooshaaaaaa
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    Postby SandChigger » 20 Feb 2008 07:33

    Well. I'd take a long hard look at her new look and probably say something like...

    "This water does not live here, Mem Sahib. This water live in Mombasa!"

    But that's just me. ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 20 Feb 2008 15:42

    SandChigger wrote:Well, there's a reason behind pointing this out, of course. 8)

    To wit:

    HOW IN FOCH'S NAME CAN THE C.E.T. MEET ON AN ISLAND OF OLD EARTH AFTER THE POST-JIHAD RELIGIOUS RIOTS IF THE FRICKING PLANET WAS FRIED WITH ATOMICS?! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

    Ahem. :D

    I'm sure they (meaning Kevin) will pull some mucus-slick rationalization out of their steaming writer holes, but this was simply a stupid, stupid oversight.

    By the two biggest fans of Dune in the world. Amen.


    Word to that chigger. I'm actually rather impressed you figured out the Old Cranks met on Hawaii! (I also appreciate the inclusion of the Sloe Man bashing :D I tried to convince sloey to come here, but he gave me the same line as before that he is staying at DN to the bitter end.)
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    Postby SandChigger » 20 Feb 2008 21:28

    He is a bit "sloe" sometimes. But still young, so there's hope. ;)

    Yeah, I wait, ready to pounce, to see what The Hacks Twain do about this one. In some ways, I wonder if maybe I shouldn't have kept it quiet, just PMed people about it, leave it a trap for the boobies. In this way they are forewarned and will be busy frothing out some asinine rationalization.

    Remember that TAZ proposed terraforming, or an orbital station via the ole historical distortion gambit. (Hell, it "worked" for them for the Bridge battle, no? :roll: )

    Terraforming, on that scale, during the chaos after the Jihad and with the religious riots, just doesn't make sense.

    Feh!
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby SandChigger » 27 Sep 2008 18:12

    Maybe some of you have noticed that DrunkenDuncan started a thread over on DumbNovels entitled Question about Old Earth. I noticed the most recent posts by Muad'Dib56 and someone with the stupid user name "AwakeTheDay" really move the discussion along:

    Muad'Dib56 wrote:maybe when they mean an island of old earth, maybe they mean the moon, or old space stations sorrounding earth that survived... maybe when they mean old earth, they mean all of our solar system, sol. so another island could be the moons of jupiter or saturn

    (Maybe you should get a thesaurus and look up "maybe"? :roll: )

    AwakeTheDay, responding, wrote:i like the idea of the moon that makes perfect sense. or a space station even better. since the earth was nuked, it had to be something like that. the moon could have bases with air. why not?

    Yes, in a bizzaro world where a "barrier" composed of spaceships filled with human hostages can be called a "bridge", why the hell shouldn't "a neutral island of Old Earth" mean a space station or moon. Fuck those obvious Polynesian elements in the song the wags write to make fun of the C.E.T. delegates! "Details," says Kevin, "WE DON'T CARE ABOUT NO FOOKING DETAILS!!!"

    UTTER AND COMPLETE STUPIDITY, BEYOND BELIEF! :lol:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Rakis » 27 Sep 2008 23:27

    Awaketheday...

    dumbbynight? :shock:
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    Postby SandChigger » 28 Sep 2008 03:15

    :lol:

    Well, for better or worse, I'm probably going to start getting over my fixation with that place.

    Reading the posts there is actually IQ-point-sapping. ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Sep 2008 17:55

    Getting half-assed banned from there is the best thing that's happened to me since... I jonied DN.
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    Postby SandChigger » 21 Dec 2008 09:00

    Bumping this one, because there's an idiot among idiots over on Dumb Novels called Bel Moulay who really should learn to keep his stupid opinions to himself until he learns to read.

    Shove that up your comfort zone.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Seraphan » 21 Dec 2008 09:30

    SandChigger wrote:Bumping this one, because there's an idiot among idiots over on Dumb Novels called Bel Moulay who really should learn to keep his stupid opinions to himself until he learns to read.

    Shove that up your comfort zone.

    What's his latest acomplishment? I can't set foot in that place 'cause it's like bathing in lava...of stupidity.
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    Postby SandChigger » 21 Dec 2008 09:41

    Nothing really worth even repeating, but....

    Basically he's just repeating TAZ's old idea that "a neutral island of Old Earth" doesn't necessarily have to refer to a real, physical island. It could mean a "chunk" of the planet (I suppose he's imagining it exploded into pieces) or an orbital platform or satellite, or even the Moon.

    Go read the passage (Dune, Appendix II, the section on the C.E.T.) for yourself and tell me if you think that's a plausible interpretation of what FH wrote.

    Or if when reading that passage you get any sense that the Earth had been devasted with atomic weapons by human forces early in the Jihad.

    The stupidity is unbelievable.

    And that goes for the two "authors" as well. Either they never bothered reading this particular appendix before writing the Legends books or they had already decided to supplant Frank's writings with their own bullshit. :evil:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby Seraphan » 21 Dec 2008 10:23

    SandChigger wrote:Nothing really worth even repeating, but....

    Basically he's just repeating TAZ's old idea that "a neutral island of Old Earth" doesn't necessarily have to refer to a real, physical island. It could mean a "chunk" of the planet (I suppose he's imagining it exploded into pieces) or an orbital platform or satellite, or even the Moon.

    Go read the passage (Dune, Appendix II, the section on the C.E.T.) for yourself and tell me if you think that's a plausible interpretation of what FH wrote.

    Or if when reading that passage you get any sense that the Earth had been devasted with atomic weapons by human forces early in the Jihad.

    The stupidity is unbelievable.

    And that goes for the two "authors" as well. Either they never bothered reading this particular appendix before writing the Legends books or they had already decided to supplant Frank's writings with their own bullshit. :evil:

    Thnks. I lent my copy of Dune to my cousin but i dont need to re-read it to know it's an idiotic idea that an "island" means the moon or anything else.
    It's just sad to see people reduced to such a low point to explain KJA and the other guy's fuck ups.
    First it's the "alien" stuff that Frank Herbert refers to as something exotic, strange, neverseen before, out of place (for fuck's sake Duncan referes to his existence in GEoD as alien to the world he's in); then you have the "island" stuff that actually means an island and they wonder off like they drank a keg of absint. The notes bullshit really harvested their brains :)
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    "The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand." - Frank Herbert
    “This tutoring is dialectical. Literature makes us better noticers of life; we get to practice on life itself; which in turn makes us better readers of detail in literature; which in turn makes us better readers of life. And so on and on.” - James Wood
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    Seraphan
     
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