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Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Nov 2011 22:02
by SandChigger
Given the upcoming Christmas holidays I was looking for mentions of Christianity in the Dune books and whilst trawling the Web found this over on the Dune Wiki:

Initial version of the Navachristianity entry, created on June 16, 2010 by Newmarduk(?):

Navachristianity was a religion in the universe of Dune that apparently combined Christianity with Native American beliefs from old Earth, particularly Navaho spirituality. This was much the same way Buddhislam was a combination of Islam and Buddhism. Navachristians believed in a God.

I'd never made that particular (Navaho) connection before, and I can't find any reference for it, either in the McDune books or my Russian PDF of the Encyclopedia. Does this ring any bells for anyone? (Is it from the O'Reilly or Touponce books, maybe?)

Anything?

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Nov 2011 22:21
by Omphalos
Never heard that either. However Herbert was interested in Native American spirituality and wrote a bit about it. Most of that was about nations and tribes in the northwest though.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Nov 2011 22:33
by Freakzilla
Didn't O'Riley mention a connection between the Native American Shamans somehow in Dune?

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Nov 2011 09:44
by Apjak
I'm pretty sure that was in relation to the spice trance.

I think NavaChristianity coming from Navajo-Christianity smells like it was pulled out of a wiki~ass. In the :puke: Machine trilogy :puke: it was the religion of Tio Holtzmann's planet before the slaves went all Sparticus on it.

In DE it lists "The Navachristian Church of Chusuk" as a group in the C. E. T. There are also numerous Christian, Christian-Islamic, Christian-Buddhist, and possibly Christian like groups in the list.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Nov 2011 09:53
by SandChigger
Freakzilla wrote:Didn't O'Riley mention a connection between the Native American Shamans somehow in Dune?

I have no idea where my copy of O'Reilly is at the moment. (Is the online version still up? Was it searchable?)

Thanks, Apjak! I searched through the books and found things like Mahayana Christianity (obviously = Buddhism + Christianity) and Socratic Christianity, and Zensunni Catholicism (although that might not mean Roman Catholicism or anything Christian at all), but I was hoping for something more. (I knew Tweedle-Dim & Tweedle-Dumbass lifted heavily from the appendices for use in the Legends books.)

I'm starting to think that maybe NewMarMaduk pulled it from his ass as well...

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Nov 2011 10:35
by Freakzilla
For the Fremen character, Herbert relied heavily on the Indians of the American Southwest and the nomads of North Africa and the Arabian peninsula. Like the Apache, the Fremen are among the finest guerrilla warriors ever known. They have been driven into inhospitable regions by foreign enemies with superior numbers and armament. But their superb knowledge of their environment makes them virtually unbeatable on that ground. They are masters of those weapons that nature has given them--they have fierce endurance, physical strength, bravery, and a kind of earth-wisdom. And like the Navajo and other Indians of the Southwest, their native religion involves a psychedelic sacrament.


I know that's not what you're looking for but that's the one place I remembered the Navaho being mentioned.


http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

I can only search a chapter at a time in IE. I don't remember any Navachristianity references by him though.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Nov 2011 11:58
by Apjak
Herbert's imagining of the future growth of religions was one part of his sci-fi prophecy where I find a glaring error. He definitely understood how new religions grew out of the beliefs of the old, but I don't find historical evidence of monotheistic religions merging. Religions tend to fragment into new sects rather than amalgamate into new wholes. Even my understanding of Greek and Roman worship was that of a cooperative-collective of cults were each god had it's own proscriptions for worship, and even within those there were variations.
:pray:

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Nov 2011 13:12
by Omphalos
Herbert's depiction of the CET wasn't an attempt to tell a story rooted in history. It was a literary reaction to it; his shot at rectifying the trends towards schism. Probably why it was in the appendicies and not in the main story; he knew it was crap.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 14 Dec 2011 17:02
by Jodorowsky's Acolyte
Whoever wrote that Navachristianity was a fusion of Navaho's religion with Christianity probably just based it on the word "Nava," and assumed that it was short for "Navaho." Unless "Nava" has another meaning, attributed to another language or religion, I'm uncertain. It's a cool concept, to have the ideology of Chirstianity fused with the spiritualism of the Navahos (I'm fascinated by the Nahavos themselves). As to whether it reallyt means what it has been suggested to mean, I think we may need to get a CET expert to help us.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Dec 2011 17:07
by Mandy
There is a place called Nava in Iran. It's in this region http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazandaran

Reading that page led me on one of those wiki journeys and now the things I thought might be relevant have evaporated :)

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Dec 2011 17:09
by Freakzilla
A Christian-Muslim combination would make more sense, I think.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Dec 2011 17:33
by Rymoah
Excuse me if I don't bring any new contribution to the main thread, but I have anyway a question: I read somewhere on the web that "Navachristianity was the religion of the ruling class on Poritrin"... Since I don't remember anything of this kind from the original books and I don't have my copy of the Chronicles at handy to check it myself, I'd like to ask if you know where this fact is referenced... is it the nth bullshit by Bobo & Keith? -__-'

Rymoah

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Dec 2011 17:41
by Freakzilla
To the contrary (as usual), Appendix II of Dune says that Navachristianity is of Chusuk.

Before the coming of Muad'Dib, the Fremen of Arrakis practiced a religion
whose roots in the Maometh Saari are there for any scholar to see. Many have
traced the extensive borrowings from other religions. The most common example is
the Hymn to Water, a direct copy from the Orange Catholic Liturgical Manual,
calling for rain clouds which Arrakis had never seen. But there are more
profound points of accord between the Kitab al-Ibar of the Fremen and the
teachings of Bible, Ilm, and Fiqh.
Any comparison of the religious beliefs dominant in the Imperium up to the
time of Muad'Dib must start with the major forces which shaped those beliefs:

...

4. The so-called Ancient Teachings -- including those preserved by the
Zensunni Wanderers from the first, second, and third Islamic movements; the
Navachristianity of Chusuk, the Buddislamic Variants of the types dominant at
Lankiveil and Sikun, the Blend Books of the Mahayana Lankavatara, the Zen
Hekiganshu of III Delta Pavonis, the Tawrah and Talmudic Zabur surviving on
Salusa Secundus, the pervasive Obeah Ritual, the Muadh Quran with its pure Ilm
and Fiqh preserved among the pundi rice farmers of Caladan, the Hindu
outcroppings found all through the universe in little pockets of insulated
pyons, and finally, the Butlerian Jihad.

~Appendix II: The Religion of Dune

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Dec 2011 17:53
by A Thing of Eternity
Freakzilla wrote:A Christian-Muslim combination would make more sense, I think.


Agreed, good find Mandy. :D

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 29 Dec 2011 19:28
by Mandy
I had a bunch of tabs open and can't really remember what led to what, but I think the Mazandaran Province is where the Baha'i faith might have begun, or maybe where one of the early important figures came from. There was also something about Zoroastrianism.

There's a village called Nava in Estonia, and one in Mexico, but not much information.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Dec 2011 07:52
by Rymoah
Freakzilla wrote:To the contrary (as usual), Appendix II of Dune says that Navachristianity is of Chusuk.

... REFERENCE CUT ...


Thanks, Freakzilla. :) Even if I read the Legends series a long time ago, I can easily imagine where the "Poritrin thing" comes from... :x

Rymoah

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Dec 2011 07:59
by SandChigger
Rymoah wrote:Excuse me if I don't bring any new contribution to the main thread, but I have anyway a question: I read somewhere on the web that "Navachristianity was the religion of the ruling class on Poritrin"... Since I don't remember anything of this kind from the original books and I don't have my copy of the Chronicles at handy to check it myself, I'd like to ask if you know where this fact is referenced... is it the nth bullshit by Bobo & Keith? -__-'

Yeah, Navachristianity on Poritrin is McDune bullshit.

(Not to say that there couldn't have been Navachristians on Poritrin in FH's Duniverse, it's just that he never mentioned them. ;) )

For reference: 3 mentions in The Butlerian Jihad; 4 in The Machine Crusade; 1 in The Battle of Corrin.

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Dec 2011 10:02
by Rymoah
SandChigger wrote:
Rymoah wrote:Excuse me if I don't bring any new contribution to the main thread, but I have anyway a question: I read somewhere on the web that "Navachristianity was the religion of the ruling class on Poritrin"... Since I don't remember anything of this kind from the original books and I don't have my copy of the Chronicles at handy to check it myself, I'd like to ask if you know where this fact is referenced... is it the nth bullshit by Bobo & Keith? -__-'

Yeah, Navachristianity on Poritrin is McDune bullshit.

(Not to say that there couldn't have been Navachristians on Poritrin in FH's Duniverse, it's just that he never mentioned them. ;) )


Sure, this doesn't exclude the possibility that Navachristianity was diffused also on Poritrin, but if the only mention in the original books was in relation with Chusuk, I can't see why they couldn't simply use it -- guess it would have "ruined" their shitty plots in the Legends. IMHO, it seems yet another proof of the carelessness with which BH & KJA treat the original material by Frank Herbert.

(And thanks for having reported the occurrences in the Legends books ;) )

Rymoah

Re: Navachristianity?

Posted: 30 Dec 2011 10:17
by Freakzilla
I think they change things FH wrote just to put their own piss stain on it.