Pre-C.E.T. religions

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Dr. Why
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Pre-C.E.T. religions

Postby Dr. Why » 26 May 2008 16:50

What is your opinion on the melding of religions in the Duniverse? One I am very much interested in the history of is the Buddislamic ones, such as how Buddhism and Islam came together.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 May 2008 17:04

I imagine it would be very rare for a religion to form which openly admits to being a blend of two religions, but that's how many current religions did form. For instance Sikhism was heavily influenced by both Hindu and Islamic beleifs, the former of those two having obvious ties with Buddhism. It's not out of the question, but history seems to point to complete re-naming of religions instead of taking a blended name.
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Postby orald » 26 May 2008 17:28

Well, history repeats itself.

Of course, one could see how all the ignorant infidels muck about in their fake blended religions while the True Faith is kept alive, if in secret from the unwashed masses, by the Chosen People.

Guess what I'm hinting at. :wink:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 May 2008 17:31

You're hinting that Judaism is thought to be a blend of several other religions? Or that Christianity and Islam are blended religions?
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Postby orald » 26 May 2008 18:26

Wash before you dare address one of the Chosen People, singular part of a mob, you! :x

*We need haughty smilies*
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 May 2008 18:32

Ah, yes I guess that would be much more "orald".
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Postby orald » 26 May 2008 19:34

You really didn't understand my first post here?
Well, lets break down the joke, shall we?

The Jews have, again, seperated themselves from the rest, not blending with the other religions and keeping to themselves, only this time hiding it.

That's of course why you still see Jews today(or in the future in Ch:D), but non of the other ancient religions, we're just that much stubborn. :P
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 May 2008 19:43

Ah. Agreed, very clingy religion, just won't go away. Might have to do with the Jews terming themselves a race instead of a mere religion. Doesn't really allow it to die out easily.
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Postby Omphalos » 26 May 2008 20:13

It sure would take one big MF'ing common interest to bring religions together like that.

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Postby SandChigger » 26 May 2008 22:37

I kinda remember posting in a thread like this (can't remember if I started it or not)...but was it in Dead Zone 1 or Dead Zone 2? Hmmm. ;)

My question IIRC was more about how a syncretism between religions as different as Islam and Buddhism could really happen.

Islam is monotheistic, ritualistic, very concerned with sin and purity and the ultimate destiny of the world and the soul. Buddhism is atheistic, less into ritual, denies the soul and is focused on the attainment of a certain "perspective". (More or less.)

A big...ahem, strong...common interest...or just long cohabitation by adherents of the two religions? ;)

FH in the Terminology in Dune wrote:ZENSUNNI: followers of a schismatic sect that broke away from the teachings of Maometh (the so-called "Third Muhammed") about 1381 B.G. The Zensunni religion is noted chiefly for its emphasis on the mystical and a reversion to "the ways of the fathers." Most scholars name Ali Ben Ohashi as leader of the original schism but there is some evidence that Ohashi may have been merely the male spokesman for his second wife, Nisai.

This tells us that there was a "Second Muhammed" in addition to this Maometh, well before 1381 B.G. It doesn't really tell us anything about the origins of Buddhislam, though.

(Note that the name Ali Ben Ohashi implies an intermarriage of Arab and Japanese. The wife's name, btw, could be translated as "Number Two Wife". "Chop chop, Hopsing!" "Yessir, Mistah Hoss!" :D )
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Postby SandChigger » 26 May 2008 23:05

A Thing of Eternity wrote:You're hinting that Judaism is thought to be a blend of several other religions? Or that Christianity and Islam are blended religions?

Being the oldest of the three, Judaism's borrowings are probably better hidden (blended?) and you have to look harder, maybe? Yahweh in his early years was just a little pissant tribal deity worshipped by illiterate nomads who lifted a lot of their early beliefs and scriptures from the older traditions of peoples around them.

Christianity and Islam were both essentially created by single individuals, Saul the Heresiarch and Muhammad Who Heard Angels (wink wink). Saul was a brilliant snake-oil salesman who co-opted a slightly interesting Jewish apocalyptic revivalist movement and turned it into a successful mystery religion (all the rage in the Imperium at the time). And Muhammad...meh, "Jews on Horses" kinda covers it, no?

Christianity (I prefer Paulianity) absorbed a ton of local traditions and deities (all them saints, eh?) as it spread. (Buddhism did the same, I believe.) I'm not sure if Islam has done the same as much, though. In a sense, it may be a purer strain than the other two...accounting perhaps for its much greater virulence. (Christianity has lost some of its perniciousness, but it's still fairly nasty. Judaism has become kind of a rich bitch country club of religions: admission by invitation only. ;) )
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby orald » 27 May 2008 00:00

SandChigger wrote:Yahweh in his early years was just a little pissant tribal deity worshipped by illiterate nomads who lifted a lot of their early beliefs and scriptures from the older traditions of peoples around them.

Now now, that's not fair. Everyone was illitarate back then. :D
But yea, Judaism really changed since it ditched all the sacrifices.

And Muhammad...meh, "Jews on Horses" kinda covers it, no?

:lol:

I'm not sure if Islam has done the same as much, though. In a sense, it may be a purer strain than the other two...accounting perhaps for its much greater virulence.

Oh, don't worry, Islam is getting tons of new "martyrs", or shahids, each day. Hopefully it'll get a fuckload more, like, say, a few millions each day? :wink: C'mon God, we need a few more tsunamies in Indonisia!

Judaism has become kind of a rich bitch country club of religions: admission by invitation only. ;) )

Not true. If you prove yourself knowledgeable enough of all the country club rules you're in. We just like to keep the trolls out there with the rest of the Christians etc.
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I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 May 2008 00:48

I don't think he was talking about Islamic Martyrs Orald, he's saying they haven't done as much assimilating of other religions as Christianity.

And to be fair, I don't see any one of the three Abraham spawned mass psycosis clubs being free of martyrs.
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Postby Pardot Kynes » 27 May 2008 01:02

The primary theory is that Judaism has no real borrowings- All faiths that originated around the time of Sumeria and the Mesopotamian Wars are thought to have originated from one original religion, and everything that came after was a result of a schism in the churches.

I choose to believe, however, that some major shit went down (Mesopotamian flood and such), and many religions simply included that in their writings- that each culture evolved separately and not together- then splitting.


Why couldn't something like that happen in the Duniverse? Who is to say that humanity spreading out wouldn't seriously impact other religions?

Something like that would certainly have consequences of a drastic nature.
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Postby SandChigger » 27 May 2008 01:34

Pardot, I was thinking about parts of the Bible that are obviously "in debt" to older (Sumerian/Babylonian) writings and traditions. Hammurabi's Code, that sort of thing.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Postby orald » 27 May 2008 07:38

And of course all those ancient religions are in debt to prehistoric tribal ones anyway. Just like we as human are in debt to australopitecus africanus(sp?) or w/e. It's always about evolution.

AToE wrote:I don't think he was talking about Islamic Martyrs Orald, he's saying they haven't done as much assimilating of other religions as Christianity.

I know, but that's also true. Islam doesn't have all that "St. Prick of the ShitHitTheFan" bullshit in a degree that Christianity has(also true for all other religions, all those prophets and center figures are some form of saint, but I think only Chris' has a shitload of them).

I think the idea of shahids is there from at least the crusades(?), but they never really made any prominant, memorable figures out of every dead guy.
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Postby SandChigger » 27 May 2008 11:53

AToE read me right: I was referring to the strategy of adopting older local deities as minor deities of the new religion (saints and holy loons in the case of Christianity) as a way of smoothing the transition for the populace.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 27 May 2008 12:00

MMMMMmmmm!

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Postby SandChigger » 27 May 2008 12:32

(Did you have something to add, Fanny, or are you online stoned and drooling typographically again?)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 May 2008 13:01

SandChigger wrote:AToE read me right: I was referring to the strategy of adopting older local deities as minor deities of the new religion (saints and holy loons in the case of Christianity) as a way of smoothing the transition for the populace.


The Christians also did a great job adopting/mutating local holy days into Christianity. As far as I know both Easter and Christmas where actually pagan holidays originally. May be others.
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Postby Freakzilla » 27 May 2008 13:15

Didn't Judaism and Islam evolve from polytheism?
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Postby SandChigger » 27 May 2008 13:23

A Thing of Eternity wrote:The Christians also did a great job adopting/mutating local holy days into Christianity. As far as I know both Easter and Christmas where actually pagan holidays originally. May be others.

All Hallows Day (& Halloween) is another one.

Freak, I'm pretty sure the Arabs were polytheistic before Islam, but I don't know if it would be right to say Islam developed from polytheism. It's more an amalgam of Judaism and Christianity and sand and sweat and being cooped up in a cave alone too long, no? (Ooh, stretchy pants AND curly-toed shoes!)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Pardot Kynes » 27 May 2008 13:35

Ah. Understood then, chiggy boy :P


And, they didn't really evolve- they were thought of as nuts.
IE, "Only ONE god? What can HE do? We got 20000! Bet they can kick his ass!"

It... transitioned, so to speak, but didn't evolve. There was too much tension for that to happen.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 May 2008 13:41

Freakzilla wrote:Didn't Judaism and Islam evolve from polytheism?


I've read that Judaism did evolve from a merging of several tribe's religions, but I think each one was already Monotheistic. Could be wrong.

Islam, not so much. Like Chig says it was basically a revision of Judaism and Christianity. Muhammad did bring together many polythiestic groups and convert them. I think he may have borrowed a few traditions from them but did not blend them an pick one god as the highest or anything.
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Postby orald » 27 May 2008 13:44

Why should the Chosen People mix with the rock and sun worshiping swineherders anyway? Harrumff! :roll:
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I wish I could have been with you that one last time.


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