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    Pre-C.E.T. religions

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      Kill the non-believers!

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    Postby orald » 12 Jul 2008 09:40

    Silly Waff. Water is way too precious to be shed for the, uh, living. :lol:
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    found this and it makes sense

    Postby anamisbored » 24 Sep 2008 07:41

    O SISTER OF AARON

    Mughirah Ibn Shu-bah(r), a companion of the Prophet Muhammad(s) relates that He was receiting the Qur'an before Christians in Najran and whilst reciting the Ayah:

    ~At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"~

    ~{Qur'ân 19:27-28}~

    The Christians confronted Him and said:

    ~"You read "O sister of Harun" (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur'ân, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus."~

    Mughira Ibn Shu-bah(r) did not know the answer so when He came back to the Prophet(s) He asked Muhammad(s) about it, where upon Muhammad(s)said:

    ~"The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them."~

    ~{Sahih Muslim-Kitaab al adab-vol 3-Hadeeth#[2135]-}~

    This Hadeeth of the Prophet opens up 2 avenues of explanation:

    1} Many Islamic scholars say that Mary(r) had a brother named after Prophet Aaron(a) which could have been possible as many of us (like the Prophet(s) says) give names to our children after the names of Apostles and pious persons.

    2} Abdullah Yusif Ali says in his commentary ~"Mary(r) is reminded of Her high lineage"~ meaning that She was a blood descendant of Prophet Aaron(a) and Moses(a)and She was given a title of honour after a name of an Apostle of which lineage She came from.

    Even though Mary could possibly had a brother in her lifetime named after Prophet Aaron(a) explaination 2 is a definite.

    However i have found orienlentalists not to be satisfied with the satisfactory answer that the Prophet(s)has given and furthermore they still accuse the Prophet(s)of anachronism.

    ANACHRONISM

    Anachronism means something that is out of harmony with the period in which it was placed in which the oreinlentalists accuse Muhammad(s) of confusing 2 different personality’s (Miriam(r) and Maryam(r)) and the time periods they lived in.

    The Bible tells us that the a man by the name of Amram bore 3 chidren, Moses(a), Aaron(a) and Miriam(r)

    ~"And the name of Amram's wife was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom her mother bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister."~

    {Numbers 26:59}

    And Miriam(r) was also addressed in the Bible as the sister of Aaron:

    ~"And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances."~

    {Exodus 15:20}

    *} In the Bible we have the sister of Aaron(a) called Miriam(r) who has a father called Amram(r)

    *} In the Qur'an we have Maryam(r) the mother of Jesus(a) being addressed by Her people "o sister of Aaron" who also happens to have a father called Imran.

    for the person without knowledge this can be quite confusing, however as i have stated before the Prophet(s) was asked about this alleged anachronism and He(s) said:

    ~"The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them."~

    ~{sahih muslim}~

    *Meaning Maryam(r) was named after Miriam(r) which i don’t think any learned Christian would disagree because the actual name Mary derives from Miriam which in the Hebrew language means "strong"

    *Likewise the father of Mary(r) "Imran" was named after a pious person who had gone before Him called 'Amram' so really i don’t see any problem here it is exactly how the Prophet(s) has put it:

    ~"They was given names after pious persons who had gone before them"~

    {Sahih Muslim}

    And even today we have many people around the world called Imran, Aaron ,Mary and so forth so i wonder how many familys past , present and future has a father called Imran with a son called Aaron and a daughter called Maryam? it is a very high possibility.

    So the charge of Anachronism has been clearly refuted by the Prophet(s) over 1400 years ago.

    Mary(r) the Levite

    There is another problem if an orienlentalist wishes to pursue further with the charge of anachronism against the Prophet(s) and that problem is that the Bible does not give us the name of Mary's(r) father because according to Jewish law the genealogy’s for females are not recorded in the scriptures, infact the closest record of Mary's(r) ancestry was spoken by the Arch Angel Gabriel(a) when He visited Mary(r) to give the glad tidings of the birth of a righteous son and the news of John the Baptist:

    ~"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren".~

    {Bible luke 1:36}

    And Mary’s(r) cousin Elizabeth(r) was married to Prophet Zechariahs(a) who were both Levite's descending from the noble ancestry of Prophet Moses(a) and His brother Aaron(a), Elizabeth was also addressed as the daughters of Aaron:

    ~"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth."~

    {Bible Luke.1.5}

    Furthermore the Prophet Muhammad(s) confirmed that Mary and Jesus were from the Levite ancestry in another Hadeeth, whilst explaining to His Companions about what happened on His miraculous night journey through the seven heavens He said:

    ~"..... When I entered (the heavens) I saw Jesus the son of Mary and John the son of Zachrais who are (2nd) cousins from the maternal side (meaning through their Mothers) and they prayed for My well being....."~

    {Sahih Muslim , Vol 1, Kitab al iman, chapter 74, Hadeeth #[162]}

    So if John the Baptist(a) was a Levite and Jesus(a) was His cousin related from the maternal side that means Mary(r) must have been a Levite and not a descendant of Judah like many Christians think, because intermarrying was forbidden between the 12 tribes of Israel ,Judites were not allowed to marry Levites.

    Why sister of Aaron?

    So why is Mary addressed in the Quran as the sister of Aaron? And why is She not addressed as the sister of Moses, Solomon, Judah etc, etc?

    *} After Mary(r) had given birth to Jesus(a) She went back to Her people carrying the baby in Her arms and with Mary(r) being unmarried Her people started accusing Mary(r) of doing a shameful act and dishonouring Her Levitical ancestry, so they said "O sister of Aaron Your Father was not a man of evil nor was your Mother unchaste!" but She pointed to the baby and by miracle baby Jesus defended His mother against the charge of Her people {Surah Maryam 19 ayah's 27-33} which couldn’t be said if the Jews would have called Her "O sister of Judah"

    ~{Bible-(a)Genesis 38:13-30,(b) Deuteronomy 23:2,(c) Matthew 1:3}~

    Also in the Bible Elizabeth(r) is given the title "daughters of Aaron" and it is common sense that She isn’t the actual daughter of Aaron but this title is a title of respect and honour because of Her noble ancestry, now why isn’t Elizabeth(r) called the daughters of Moses(a) and so forth?

    Another problem the orienlentist has difficulty understanding is why is Mary(r) called the sister of Aaron(a) and not the Daughter of Aaron(a) and they claim that "In those days people were only named as sons or daughters (never brothers or sisters, incidentally) of people from whom they directly descended" but according to the Bible God(s) says to Moses(a):

    ~"I shall raise them up a Prophet from amongst their brethren"~(meaning brothers)
    {Deuteronomy 18:18}

    Now according to Christian theologians this prophecy is referring to Jesus(a), "Their" refers to the Judaic tribe and "brethren" refers to the generations to come, so if this prophecy is in concordance with Jesus(a) then Jesus(a) is the "Brethren of Judah" in Biblical terms

    So why does it say that this prophet is to come from amongst their Brethren/brothers and why not from amongst their sons? Shouldn’t it say, "I will raise them a prophet from amongst their sons"?

    ~All praise to God(s) and infinite peace and blessings be upon Muhammad(s), His companions and His family~



    Islam is the solution to Terrorism not the cause of it.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    anamisbored
     

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2008 08:42

    No, fuck off and do it someone else.

    This is a site about Dune. The fact that the works treat Islamic themes does not warrant this kind of shit posting.

    (WhoTF is Sister of Aaron? We have any members here by that name? NO.)

    :evil:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Purge » 24 Sep 2008 11:22

    I think he is speaking about the fact that the Quran seems to amalgamate Miriam (sister of Moses and Aaron - 15th-14th century BCE) and Mary (mother of Jesus - 1st century CE) into one person.
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    Postby TheDukester » 24 Sep 2008 11:23

    Who gives a shit? He's a fucking nutjob spammer.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
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    Postby Purge » 24 Sep 2008 11:30

    Anathema wrote:Regarding judaism, it's not certain (and very much doubtable) wether they were always monotheistic. They limited their worship to one god from fairly early on, but never made a problem of other people worshipping theirs and didn't claim to hold a monopoly. One theory is that they developed their monotheistic tendencies after being in contact with Zoroastranianism (actually dualism) during the Babylonian exile.


    Why would they have a problem with others worshiping their G-d? I'm aware of all the theories, and of course the Hebrew Bible itself is up front about the fact that some Israelites throughout the generations went after the gods of others, the various baalim, etc.

    I disagree with the Zoroastrian theory for a number of reasons. One of which is that while Christianity believes in a "good god" and a "bad god", there is no devil in Judaism, and G-d is responsible for creating good and evil. I would say, however, that the Zoroastrian beliefs of some of the Persian rulers was probably very beneficial to the Jews.

    Anyway, I apologize for getting off from the topic of this thread.
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    Postby Purge » 24 Sep 2008 11:32

    TheDukester wrote:Who gives a shit? He's a fucking nutjob spammer.
    ]

    I was merely responding to SC's last comment:

    (WhoTF is Sister of Aaron? We have any members here by that name? NO.)


    Which in hindsight, perhaps it was rhetorical. :lol:
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    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2008 11:42

    Ahp.

    (Btw, that "G-d" shit is so quaint. Fantapop evidently thought it quite kewl the way he adopted it.)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2008 12:16

    As much as I do hate Islam less than a lot of other religions I think we have a spammer. Just joined, two posts which are both Islam advertisement, neither of which has the least Dune content.

    SandChigger wrote:(Btw, that "G-d" shit is so quaint. Fantapop evidently thought it quite kewl the way he adopted it.)


    I am actually curious about that. Call me ignorant, but isn't the reason Jews don't write god with vowels because they don't write anything with vowels in Hebrew?

    That said, Judaism is not one of the religions I know a whole tonne about, it's not exotic enough to have caught my attention to study for fun yet, and it's not as prevalent around me as Xianity and Islam so I don't need to know about it as much to argue with theists in my life. I should learn more though since it would help a lot in my explaining to Xians just how much they have distorted and confused the first testament, and there's nothing I love more than the look on a Xian's face when I prove an error in his religion. :D Brings a little smile to me heart. :wink:

    Talk on Purge, I'm embarrassed to say that I've learned more from you talking about Judaism than I have from most other sources.

    This board isn't the place for it though, I would like to see this discussion get back to being about Dune. Maybe just PM me or maybe Omph could be super nice and move the last half of this thread over to the general discussion at T(A)U where it would be better suited IMO.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Sep 2008 12:55

    anamisbored is no longer active. :wink:
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    Postby Ampoliros » 24 Sep 2008 14:20

    Aside from the fact that Freak knows that 'motivated' is one of us, I'd almost think maybe the HLP and KJA in particular are becoming more pro-active in their defense of the new books. I'm hoping this is purely an irrational fear.

    Where did this 'anamisbored' character come from, and why now?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Sep 2008 14:21

    Ampoliros wrote:Aside from the fact that Freak knows that 'motivated' is one of us, I'd almost think maybe the HLP and KJA in particular are becoming more pro-active in their defense of the new books. I'm hoping this is purely an irrational fear.


    I hope they do. I'd rather face them head on.

    Where did this 'anamisbored' character come from, and why now?


    Uranus.

    :P
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