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    Jewish Heritage via Axlotl Tank?

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      Kill the non-believers!

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Nov 2008 15:33

    EsperandoAGodot wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:Why? Do the Sufis dislike the Jews more than the Sunnis and Shiites? :?


    No, it just implies that they are Islamic, many of which don't like the Book People.

    Muslims count as "book people."


    Yes, but I thought they refered to Jews and Christians in that way.

    Also, isn't a great deal of the universe adherent to some sort of Islamic offshoot religion at this point?


    I believe the most pervasive religion in the Old Empire is Leto's. At least, they give it lip service. Even people in The Scattering worship Dur or Gildur, another name for Leto II.

    The Bene Gesserit are genuinely suprised when they find out about the BT religion. I imagine they wouldn't be if it was common.
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    Postby EsperandoAGodot » 15 Nov 2008 16:08

    Freakzilla wrote:I believe the most pervasive religion in the Old Empire is Leto's. At least, they give it lip service. Even people in The Scattering worship Dur or Gildur, another name for Leto II.

    The Bene Gesserit are genuinely suprised when they find out about the BT religion. I imagine they wouldn't be if it was common.

    Yeah, you're right, I was thinking Paul's era when in fact we're talking about much later.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Nov 2008 16:23

    EsperandoAGodot wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I believe the most pervasive religion in the Old Empire is Leto's. At least, they give it lip service. Even people in The Scattering worship Dur or Gildur, another name for Leto II.

    The Bene Gesserit are genuinely suprised when they find out about the BT religion. I imagine they wouldn't be if it was common.

    Yeah, you're right, I was thinking Paul's era when in fact we're talking about much later.


    Not much is said about specific religions prior to the Atreides Ascendancy.

    It doesn't really matter since Paul wiped most major religions out.
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    Postby SandChigger » 15 Nov 2008 18:34

    "Statistics: at a conservative estimate, I've killed sixty-one billion, sterilized ninety planets, completely demoralized five hundred others. I've wiped out the followers of forty religions which had existed since—"

    "Unbelievers!" Korba protested. "Unbelievers all!"

    "No," Paul said. "Believers."

    "My Liege makes a joke," Korba said, voice trembling. "The Jihad has brought ten thousand worlds into the shining light of—"

    "Into the darkness," Paul said. "We'll be a hundred generations recovering from Muad'dib's Jihad. I find it hard to imagine that anyone will ever surpass this." A barking laugh erupted from his throat.

    Oh...how dark he is here! ;)

    "Most religions" might be a slight exaggeration, no? He specifically mentions forty...which is of course a lot by our standards...but then we've no idea how many "religions" there were in the Imperium to begin with. (He slew a whole slew of people, after all! Ha ha.) Some are mentioned in the Religion Appendix.

    "Book People" is kinda funny; sounds like a bookstore chain name. (Is it actually? :shock: ) al-Kitâb "The Book" can mean the Qur'an to Muslims just as "The Good Book" means the Bible to Christians. Ahl al-Kitâb (I wonder if FH would have rendered the first word as Achl, as he changes ahlan to achlan?), according to "The Little Green Demon" (The Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, pocket-book edition), means "the people of the Book, adherents of a revealed religion, the kitabis, i.e., Christians and Jews".
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    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Nov 2008 18:50

    SandChigger wrote:
    "Statistics: at a conservative estimate, I've killed sixty-one billion, sterilized ninety planets, completely demoralized five hundred others. I've wiped out the followers of forty religions which had existed since—"

    "Unbelievers!" Korba protested. "Unbelievers all!"

    "No," Paul said. "Believers."

    "My Liege makes a joke," Korba said, voice trembling. "The Jihad has brought ten thousand worlds into the shining light of—"

    "Into the darkness," Paul said. "We'll be a hundred generations recovering from Muad'dib's Jihad. I find it hard to imagine that anyone will ever surpass this." A barking laugh erupted from his throat.

    Oh...how dark he is here! ;)

    "Most religions" might be a slight exaggeration, no? He specifically mentions forty...which is of course a lot by our standards...but then we've no idea how many "religions" there were in the Imperium to begin with. (He slew a whole slew of people, after all! Ha ha.) Some are mentioned in the Religion Appendix.

    "Book People" is kinda funny; sounds like a bookstore chain name. (Is it actually? :shock: ) al-Kitâb "The Book" can mean the Qur'an to Muslims just as "The Good Book" means the Bible to Christians. Ahl al-Kitâb (I wonder if FH would have rendered the first word as Achl, as he changes ahlan to achlan?), according to "The Little Green Demon" (The Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, pocket-book edition), means "the people of the Book, adherents of a revealed religion, the kitabis, i.e., Christians and Jews".


    The idea of "The Muad'dib's Jihad" was to enforce Paul's religion, no?

    Paradise at the point of a crysknife.

    I think it's safe to assume that if it was a major religion it was wiped out.

    (I had a feeling someone was going to call me on that as soon as I typed it.)
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    Postby SandRider » 15 Nov 2008 19:32

    {fuck, I hate to do this ....}


    "Statistics: at a conservative estimate, I've killed sixty-one billion, sterilized ninety planets, completely demoralized five hundred others. I've wiped out the followers of forty religions which had existed since—"

    "Unbelievers!" Korba protested. "Unbelievers all!"

    "No," Paul said. "Believers."

    "My Liege makes a joke," Korba said, voice trembling. "The Jihad has brought ten thousand worlds into the shining light of—"

    "Into the darkness," Paul said. "We'll be a hundred generations recovering from Muad'dib's Jihad. I find it hard to imagine that anyone will ever surpass this." A barking laugh erupted from his throat.


    since this is of course now unreliable as it all Irulan propaganda,
    would you e-mail Kevin and brief him on our discussion here,
    and ask for a definitive answer as to the actual number of religions
    The Maud'dib's Jihad eliminated, so I can sleep at night ?


    {that I can even think to make a sarcastic comment like that pisses me off to no end .....}
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    Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 15 Nov 2008 19:36

    SandChigger wrote::lol:

    :?: :!:

    Is the "Shut up, Byron" story post still online over there? Is that what you're referring to? ;)


    http://www.zone-sf.com/frankherbert.html

    "I remember him taking me for a walk behind his house past the chicken coop and onto a small trail through the woods. He took me to meet the Starrys, my neighbours for that summer, a warm and polite couple who could have been featured sitting on a porch in a Norman Rockwell painting. After saying friendly 'hellos,' we returned to the trail heading back toward home.
    "So what do you do?" I remember asking him as we made our way into the damp forest.
    "What do you mean, 'What do I do?'"
    "You know," I said impatiently, "for a living. What do you do?"
    His brow furrowed up in frustration. It looked as though he were getting mad, but then his blue eyes softened and he told me, "I write." "


    Chig, were you referring about this story?

    I swear I was expecting FH to say: "Shut up, Byron", after byron's question. :lol:

    "That's one of the books I've written. Perhaps when you're old enough, you can read it," he said and put the book back on its shelf.

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    Postby SandRider » 15 Nov 2008 19:56

    I had found that but hadn't gotten around to reading it yet.
    I just did.
    It's disgusting.
    On several levels....
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    Postby SandChigger » 15 Nov 2008 19:58

    No, Byron posted about another summer visit when he was a kid, maybe, and he was being really hyper in the car and talking a lot or asking a lot of questions or something like that and gradually got on Frank's nerves and Frank finally said, "Shut up, Byron."

    For a while Byron was doing series of Frank Herbert trivia question threads, seeing who knew or could guess the answers. I think the story was in one of those.

    It was a long time ago, maybe before he turned the automatic pruning off (having it on was almost criminal, when you think about it), so it might be gone. Or he might have deleted it. Who knows. I can't be bothered to look for it. Besides, the punch line is the best part.

    "SHUT UP, BYRON!" :lol:
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    Postby EsperandoAGodot » 15 Nov 2008 21:26

    Freakzilla wrote:Not much is said about specific religions prior to the Atreides Ascendancy.

    Through quotes from religious texts, the appendices, the heavily Middle-Eastern influenced terminology extending all the way to the top of the government - not just Emperor, but Padishah Emperor - and the fact that the most significant religious movement in the last ten millennia is referred to as a jihad, much is implied.
    Freakzilla wrote:It doesn't really matter since Paul wiped most major religions out.

    Paul's tradition comes out of pre-existing religions, though. It's Leto that seems to be something brand new.
    SandChigger wrote:"Book People" is kinda funny; sounds like a bookstore chain name. (Is it actually? Shocked ) al-Kitâb "The Book" can mean the Qur'an to Muslims just as "The Good Book" means the Bible to Christians. Ahl al-Kitâb (I wonder if FH would have rendered the first word as Achl, as he changes ahlan to achlan?), according to "The Little Green Demon" (The Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, pocket-book edition), means "the people of the Book, adherents of a revealed religion, the kitabis, i.e., Christians and Jews".

    The term "people of the Book," though, refers to the three major religions coming out of the Jewish scriptural tradition - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The second draws on the mythology of the first and the third draws on the mythology of the first two.
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    Postby Nekhrun » 15 Nov 2008 22:30

    SandChigger wrote:For a while Byron was doing series of Frank Herbert trivia question threads, seeing who knew or could guess the answers. I think the story was in one of those.

    Yeah, he did about three of them and then apparently ran out of things to tell us about Frank that we don't already know.
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    Postby Omphalos » 16 Nov 2008 02:52

    Nekhrun wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:For a while Byron was doing series of Frank Herbert trivia question threads, seeing who knew or could guess the answers. I think the story was in one of those.

    Yeah, he did about three of them and then apparently ran out of things to tell us about Frank that we don't already know.


    I think it was just that everything else was so personal, he couldn't share it. After all, he knew his grandfather so very well, no?
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    Postby SandRider » 16 Nov 2008 08:44

    Merritt wrote:http://www.zone-sf.com/frankherbert.html
    Once inside he took me upstairs to his study, something that would occur only twice in my life.


    This first time was when Merritt was seven. He had asked Frank what he did for a living. Frank told him he was a writer. Even at that young age, Merritt was unable to grasp reality, so Frank took him into the study and showed him a book with "Frank Herbert" on the cover.

    Anybody know when & why the second time Merritt was in Frank's study ?
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