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    "They denied us the Hajj!"

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    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Dec 2008 13:42

    Baraka Bryan wrote:i don't think foldspace would make it any easier for lower income muslims to make the Hajj.... wasn't foldspace travel fucking expensive? or at least normal expensive?


    I think the Guild provided free or reduced rate transport for Muad'dib's pilgrams but I'm not sure if that was his order or their choice.
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    Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Dec 2008 13:46

    Baraka, I'd be surprised if there aren't ways around that. Ever heard of Birthright?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Dec 2008 15:59

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Baraka Bryan wrote:i don't think foldspace would make it any easier for lower income muslims to make the Hajj.... wasn't foldspace travel fucking expensive? or at least normal expensive?


    I think the Guild provided free or reduced rate transport for Muad'dib's pilgrams but I'm not sure if that was his order or their choice.


    I was referring to the earlier idea of muslim pilgrims making a hajj post-space colonization ... i guess we can't know what relative prices would have been like since we dont know the fuel or whatever drove the foldspace engines...

    my main point was I don't think foldspace would have simplified the making of the Hajj at all, barring outside influence such as Muad'dib had over the guild.


    I'm only suggesting that before the Atreides ascendancy, the Guild may have already been offering pilgrim rates. The did give free transport to the CET.

    From the link SR provided it seems you can have someone appointed to make the hajj for you.
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    Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Dec 2008 21:01

    Once more, I cite Birthright
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    Postby moreh_yeladim » 07 Jan 2009 15:53

    EsperandoAGodot wrote:Once more, I cite Birthright

    Thank you for conclusively, if irrelevantly, proving that if Jews had to make a mandatory pilgrimage we'd figure out a way for everyone and his brother in college to go.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 16 Dec 2009 17:04

    SandChigger wrote:
    FH in Dune wrote: Jessica recoiled, fearing she would become lost in an ocean of oneness. Still, the corridor remained, revealing to Jessica that the Fremen culture was far older than she had suspected.

    There had been Fremen on Poritrin, she saw, a people grown soft with an easy planet, fair game for Imperial raiders to harvest and plant human colonies on Bela Tegeuse and Salusa Secundus.

    Oh, the wailing Jessica sensed in that parting.

    Far down the corridor, an image-voice screamed: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Jessica saw the slave cribs on Bela Tegeuse down that inner corridor, saw the weeding out and the selecting that spread men to Rossak and Harmonthep. Scenes of brutal ferocity opened to her like the petals of a terrible flower. And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after Sayyadina—first by word of mouth, hidden in the sand chanteys, then refined through their own Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak...and now developed to subtle strength on Arrakis in the discovery of the Water of Life.

    Far down the inner corridor, another voice screamed: "Never to forgive! Never to forget!"

    The Terminologist wrote:HAJJ: holy journey.

    The Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca that devout Muslims are expected to attempt at least once during their lives, begins in a few days, and reminded of this quote in Dune, I've been wondering what this practice would mean in terms of the background story and to future space colonization in the real world.

    In the Duniverse, does this quote not mean that until they were "harvested", the Fremen still engaged in the practice of Hajj? (And if not, how then could they have been "denied" it?) What would have been the destination of their pilgrimage? Mecca on Old Earth? Some "New Mecca" on some "New Earth"? (There were at least two new "Muhammeds", after all; maybe they had their own Meccas?)

    In real world terms, will this practice prevent devout Muslims from participating in long-term colonization voyages (as on generation ships) that will by their nature be one-way and therefore prevent generations from fulfilling the quasi-obligation "to goon on pilgrimage"? (Didn't someone post a link to a news story about Muslims in space? Was that here or over on Dearly Departed 'Keen?)


    I'm glad someone posted about this, since this was one of the parts that really grabbed me the last time I read Dune. I think it was one of those layers I never fully understood until that particular reading. As you all know, Frank's work has a tendency to do this.

    Anyway, I think the Hajj that these Fremen slaves are wailing about must have been a severely evolved version of Islam. Were Fremen not the descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers? Perhaps wandering from one planet to another was part of the Hajj. Think about it. Sunni says "make a pilgrimage to Mecca." Zen says "make a pilgrimage to anywhere you want." :P

    And I'm thinking that all of this Bela Tegeuse stuff happened long after the two Muhammeds (you're referring to the second and third Islamic movements, or whatever it was called, correct?). After this slave crib business, I'm thinking that was when Zensunnis were no longer Zensunnis, and instead had become Fremen.

    Amazing though, how Frank can give us a few sentences on the subject and say so much with it, covering so much history.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Dec 2009 18:04

    I was under the impression that the Fremen were very much still Zensunni, Fremen was their nationality, or ethnic group, etc, and some form of Zensunni being their religion.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 17 Dec 2009 00:48

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I was under the impression that the Fremen were very much still Zensunni, Fremen was their nationality, or ethnic group, etc, and some form of Zensunni being their religion.



    Yeah, good point. "Some form of Zensunni" is the key part. It seemed to me that the Fremen Zensunni religion had become a thing quite different from what the rest of the universe would call "Zensunni" but close enough so that Jessica could recognize it. For instance, adding the Panoplia Propheticus to the mix probably altered the Fremen Zensunni faith a great deal.
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    Re:

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 09 Feb 2010 12:23

    SandRider wrote:Thing already posted the immediate thought I had : by the time humans are actually colonizing space, the Sunni & Shia will have either killed each other off, or some John Wayne American President will have bombed them all into submission. (If not, then it's like all the other things your crazy religion denies you - stay home.)

    On the poor-Haji thing, the Saudi government has a massive program set up for aid to Muslims who can't afford the trip - less than fucking third class, tho. Pakis packed in buses like wetbacks, herded from the airport to the sites, ran around the rock a few times, then hustled back on the plane and gotten the fuck out.


    But to a sincere practitioner of Islam, it may be the crummiest conditions to be found on the planet, but to them to touch the site where Mohammed made contact with their god makes the terrible journey worth it.(correct me if I am wrong with whether or not that is what Mecca signifies).
    None the less, damn that government for hoarding all of their beauracratically secretive funds from honoring the most sacred space with what they should view as, in accordance with their faith, as a sacred people. The should be treated with respect, for crying out loud, they are followers of the same faith as you are!

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    Re: Re:

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Feb 2010 12:54

    reverendmotherQ. wrote:
    SandRider wrote:Thing already posted the immediate thought I had : by the time humans are actually colonizing space, the Sunni & Shia will have either killed each other off, or some John Wayne American President will have bombed them all into submission. (If not, then it's like all the other things your crazy religion denies you - stay home.)

    On the poor-Haji thing, the Saudi government has a massive program set up for aid to Muslims who can't afford the trip - less than fucking third class, tho. Pakis packed in buses like wetbacks, herded from the airport to the sites, ran around the rock a few times, then hustled back on the plane and gotten the fuck out.


    But to a sincere practitioner of Islam, it may be the crummiest conditions to be found on the planet, but to them to touch the site where Mohammed made contact with their god makes the terrible journey worth it.(correct me if I am wrong with whether or not that is what Mecca signifies).
    None the less, damn that government for hoarding all of their beauracratically secretive funds from honoring the most sacred space with what they should view as, in accordance with their faith, as a sacred people. The should be treated with respect, for crying out loud, they are followers of the same faith as you are!

    :gets off soapbox:


    Mecca is the site of the Kabbah, a big cubic building carved out of a meteorite. It was old even back in Mo's day, and the Islamic belief is that it was built by Abraham (the patriarch of Judaism Xianity and Islam) and his first son Ishmael, who was banished when Abraham eventually had a child with his wife (rather than his servant/slave).

    So it symbolizes the roots of Islam all the way back to the roots of Judaism, making it even more significant than just a place where Mo" talked with god. There are some pretty holy sites of that nature too, but I think they're all in Israel.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SandRider » 09 Feb 2010 13:21

    the space rock itself was being worshiped forever - Muhammad tied it into his version of
    Abrahamic Monotheism because it was already considered a "holy" place by the previous
    "pagans" - same way the Romans & Catholic Church sucked in all the previous "pagan"
    mythology and holidays into their version ...

    even tho the rock isn't an "iconic image", it's still an inanimate object, and the
    Muslims are still worshiping it, no matter how they rationalize it ... same thing
    with the Catholics and their idols of the Virgin & so forth ....

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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Feb 2010 13:46

    Yup.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SadisticCynic » 09 Feb 2010 16:45

    (Slightly off-topic: Xianity obviously refers to Christianity, but why X specifically? Is it because of the various denominations i.e. x = a variable?)
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Feb 2010 16:49

    SadisticCynic wrote:(Slightly off-topic: Xianity obviously refers to Christianity, but why X specifically? Is it because of the various denominations i.e. x = a variable?)


    It's just an abreviation I've seen Sandchigger use, like Xmas instead of Christmas (though that gets confusing, because I personally use Xmas to refer to the secular holiday that happens to fall on and have most of the same rituals as Christmas!).
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SadisticCynic » 09 Feb 2010 16:54

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:(Slightly off-topic: Xianity obviously refers to Christianity, but why X specifically? Is it because of the various denominations i.e. x = a variable?)


    It's just an abreviation I've seen Sandchigger use, like Xmas instead of Christmas (though that gets confusing, because I personally use Xmas to refer to the secular holiday that happens to fall on and have most of the same rituals as Christmas!).


    Guess I was just overcomplicating it! Thanks.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SandRider » 09 Feb 2010 18:49

    nah, there's a logical, historical reason for it
    (the answer is not "crossing out the Christ in Christmas" BTW)

    can't recall it right now, but it's an old, old thing, maybe to do with the Greek ?

    I think it is also tied into the fish symbol, which is also very old ....

    if I get around to it, I'll try to find out; if Chig doesn't provide the answer before then ....
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Feb 2010 18:55

    SandRider wrote:nah, there's a logical, historical reason for it
    (the answer is not "crossing out the Christ in Christmas" BTW)

    can't recall it right now, but it's an old, old thing, maybe to do with the Greek ?

    I think it is also tied into the fish symbol, which is also very old ....

    if I get around to it, I'll try to find out; if Chig doesn't provide the answer before then ....


    :lol: It's crossing out the Christ in Christmas when I do it. :lol:

    Seriously though, I was unaware that there was anything behind Xmas or Xian other than simply shortening the words.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SandRider » 09 Feb 2010 19:00

    X·mas (krsms, ksms)
    n.
    Christmas.
    [From X, the Greek letter chi, first letter of Greek Khrstos, Christ; see Christ.]
    Usage Note: Xmas has been used for hundreds of years in religious writing, where the X represents a Greek chi, the first letter of , "Christ." In this use it is parallel to other forms like Xtian, "Christian." But people unaware of the Greek origin of this X often mistakenly interpret Xmas as an informal shortening pronounced (ksms). Many therefore frown upon the term Xmas because it seems to them a commercial convenience that omits Christ from Christmas.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


    edit -
    "Many therefore frown upon the term Xmas because it seems to them a commercial convenience that omits Christ from Christmas."

    i.e. "War on Christmas","Keep Christ in Christmas", &etc.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SandChigger » 09 Feb 2010 19:05

    The X is the same in Xian and Xmas, ultimately the Greek Chi, first letter in Christos. It's just an abbreviation.

    But when it comes down to it, why shouldn't it mean "leaving Christ out of it"? That's what "Christians" have been doing for millennia.

    I use Xian a lot, but actually prefer Paulian: the use of Xian or "Christian" (which should always be written in scare quotes except when it refers to the extinct Jerusalem Church) implicitly buys into the fiction that the religion founded by a heresiarch (both Jewish & Christian) from Tarsus has anything at all to do with the Judaic reform movement started by a fire-n-brimstone/end-of-the-world preaching rabbi from the hinterlands (who may or may not have died as a result of a public execution).

    :)
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 09 Feb 2010 22:41

    Oh, I see. I didn't know that it was built from a meteorite. Hell, I want to see it too now.
    I agree about the imaginary friends. I was a devout christian until I woke up one day when I was seventeen and thought, "God, you are obsolete and I don't need you motherfrakker." Been liberated ever since.
    Every reference to the elimination of polytheism by compromise with monotheism makes me sick. When I think of my celtic ancestors and every corollary of them and how we raped not just their women with the romans but then brainwashed them with self sacrifice nonsense.
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Feb 2010 13:03

    I'd love to see it too, but it ain't gonna happen, it's constantly surrounded by hundreds of thousands of the faithful, and I don't think anyone gets to go inside (would take too long). Also, they keep it covered in some kind of silly curtain, so it can't really be seen.

    Here you can see it with a bunch of people praying around it. You can see part of the complex they built around it in the background.

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    And here you see the whole complex (notice the whole area for blocks and blocks is still filled with people praying), you can see the Kabbah itself in the back.

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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SandRider » 10 Feb 2010 15:33

    you also have to be a certified Muslim to enter the Grand Mosque ....

    same rules they got in Jerusalem, infidels ain't allowed on the Temple Mount ....

    in theory and practice, Sunni Islam ranks behind only the Roman Catholic Church in
    evil-minded bullshit, oppression, bloodshed, and pure silliness ....

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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Feb 2010 15:58

    Wiki says it's made of granite mined from local hills... not sure what my religion teacher was smoking when he said meteorite...
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Feb 2010 17:15

    The "Black Stone" is embedded in one corner of the Ka'bah. :)
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    Re: "They denied us the Hajj!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Feb 2010 17:35

    I saw that, but my teach said the whole thing was carved from one block of it, must have been high or something.
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