Great Depression 2009

    Abandon all sanity, ye who enter here!

Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

User avatar
Drunken Idaho
Posts: 1197
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Drunken Idaho » 06 Feb 2009 16:35

Freakzilla wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:Well there are certainly a lot of critics of Obama's package (not Michelle ;)), and I even agree that many of the earmarks might be unnecessary. I just think it's sad that the system relies on so much extraneous spending, not just on this bill but on apparently every major bill that has been passed in recent history. Neither party is unfamiliar with this technique, but both sides attack it when it's convenient to do so, as we're seeing now.

But besides that, I support Obama's political instincts when it comes to this bill. In his speech last night, I found myself saying "damned right!" a lot. I love this talk about denying failed CEOs their monster salaries when they come to Washington for bailouts. It's exactly the kind of treatment they deserve, save for being denied any bailout at all. He also went on about encouraging the production of hybrid cars, which would create jobs and reduce spending on over-priced foreign fuel, while also reducing dependency. In addition to that, he's putting money into wind and solar, which also will produce jobs and reduce dependancy on planet-poisoning resources. It was the first time I can ever say I was truly satisfied with the words of a US president.

But of course even the stuff I loved about it was attacked, saying that the speech was highly partisan. Can someone explain to me why environmental responsibility is considered a partisan issue? Especially when it could kill two birds with one stone (to be ironic) like we see here? Is protecting the planet for future generations a democrat thing? And if so, does that make protecting the oil industry a republican thing? I know it's not black & white like that, but why do so many US politicians still act like such innovation isn't a moral responsibility? If you're going to leave your children with massive debt, you might as well try to make it so that they'll be less impacted by climate disasters and oil wars.


How do you think the jobs that are created with the package are going to be paid for? The money that we pay these people with is taxpayer money, YOUR money. We have to borrow this money from OUW OWN FUTURE!.

The government doesn't CREATE any wealth, it only takes it from you.


I realize that 100%, but whether it's a stimulus package from Obama, or one from any of his critics, it's still going to be an expensive freaking bill and a hefty addition to the national debt of the US. Be it stimulus packages, government bailouts, the iraq war, or Dick Cheney's addiction to high-class Swedish male prostitutes, there's a giant mountain of cash that won't be paid off for generations to come.

The disagreement right now in Washington is about different ways to stimulate the economy or alleviate the ramifications. What I'm saying is that since this black hole of debt is so huge (with or without Obama's plan) why not use it as a vehicle to improve the other challenges being left for the kiddies???
"The Idahos were never ordinary people."
-Reverend Mother Superior Alma Mavis Taraza

User avatar
Drunken Idaho
Posts: 1197
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Drunken Idaho » 06 Feb 2009 16:45

SandRider wrote:
D. Idaho wrote:Is protecting the planet for future generations a democrat thing? And if so, does that make protecting the oil industry a republican thing?


in general, yes.

Out here in West Texas, change been a-comin.

Once the Oil & Land Barons out here figgered out just how much money could be
made from Wind Energy, how many jobs, how (relatively) cheap the construction is,
they all jumped on board with both boots.

The Wind Energy boom has been a cause of great "bipartisan" co-operation out here -
there's still some oilmen holdouts, but the economic problems of last year opened alot
of eyes on that side.

It's just so reminscent of the drought out here in the 50s. Cattle ranchers who had no
use for goats or sheep, really looked down on those who raised them, found that those
animals were easier to keep alive and that money could be made from them. Them
damn sheep literally saved lives out here.

About 15 years or so ago, the LittleBigTown got a hundred life size sheep statues made,
outta some kind of real hard plaster, and had a contest for painting them up. They were
then placed all around the town. Visitors often say "Man, y'all love your sheep, huh ?"
Yes,we do. And in the future, we're gonna love our Turbines ....


Interesting to hear it from a Texan... Sounds like your state is doing a lot better than my province when it comes to that. As far as I know, Toronto has a single windmill. But then again, much of Southern Ontario (or in the golden horseshoe at least) is powered by hydroelectricity, which is pretty damned renewable considering the fact that Niagara Falls is expected to be around for millennia. Actually, there is an area just on the north side of Lake Erie where you drive for miles and miles, seeing nothing but wind turbines. It's actually a pretty cool sight. So maybe Ontario is doing alright, but I'm sure Canada as a whole could be trying a lot harder. The problem is, Stephen Harper is a sleazy douchebag.

And please forgive my ignorance to your cute little Texan sayings, but what is LittleBigTown? :P
"The Idahos were never ordinary people."
-Reverend Mother Superior Alma Mavis Taraza

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2161
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Postby Robspierre » 06 Feb 2009 19:20

And yet the three TRILLION given back to the richest 1 % and corporations beyond what they put into the system was a good thing. :roll: And it was in 2004 when the Bush Administration allowed Merrill lynch and others ot exemot themselves from all government oversight and operate with ZERO regulation. They quickly amassed debt/fund ratio's of 35-40/1 way over the federal allowed 12/1 ratio. While there have been many loans to people who should not of received them, they are an extremely small part of the problem, in fact, the majority of bad loans were made to people as a second mortgage according to the lending industry. Clinton's program started in 1999 and Bush EXPANDED it in 2004, right around the time the banks were cut loose of regulation, funny that.
While we are bitching, let us not forget the handout Bush gave the industry at the end of his term, that was a blatant raiding of the US treasury by business.

And no the economy wasn't fine until the dems took over, the bubbles were starting to pop off and on as far back as 2000, he american people just buried their heads in the san and ignored all the warnings.

Rob

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18293
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Feb 2009 20:01

Everyone has good points and I think we've gone beyond partisan fingerpointing into plaid. Both parties of guilty of horse trading and I think that's what's gotten us here.

The Dems need two Repubilcan votes in the Sentate to pass this, they will buy them with taxpayer money by including an earmark for them. Wait and see.

This bill is a sub-prime mortgage on your kids future.

Wan't to stimulate the economy? Give the country a two year payroll tax holiday. I think I heard Stephen Forbes suggest that on the radio today. Ease the cost to small business owners.

Government spending DOES NOT stimulate economies. Look at the US in the '30s seven years of spending didn't work WWII got us out of the depression, look at Japan in the '90s they had like 9 stimuls plans and not until thier gov't stopped fucking with things did it get better. It will only create a drag on recovery.

We're all DOOMED!
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Postby SandRider » 06 Feb 2009 20:24

"LittleBigTown" is the nickname I started using here to talk about the
nearest "city" near me, without actually naming it.

I actually live closer to Blinkin' Red Light, Texas, but you can't get liquor there.

"Little Big Town" is also a really good modern country quartet, had some
hits on the radio; 2 guy and 2 girls and they trade off lead vocals all the
time, with really nice harmonies. Kinda like Fleetwood Mac for shitkickers.
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

MICAH
Posts: 30
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 13:30

Postby MICAH » 08 Feb 2009 06:53

-The Elliot Spitzer(Subprime Whistleblower) scandal last year was the 1st red flag for me. Up until that point i never really paid attention, so it's interesting to me to hear your guys' take on things. Speaking of which, i got stopped at the grocery by some LaRouche folks out front today. somebody want to give me a leg up before i crash their little party? :?

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18293
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Feb 2009 08:39

MICAH wrote:-The Elliot Spitzer(Subprime Whistleblower) scandal last year was the 1st red flag for me. Up until that point i never really paid attention, so it's interesting to me to hear your guys' take on things. Speaking of which, i got stopped at the grocery by some LaRouche folks out front today. somebody want to give me a leg up before i crash their little party? :?


Sorry I ruined your Panther Party. :lol:
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Postby SandRider » 08 Feb 2009 14:56

wow. I sure thought ol' Lyndon was dead.

He was a good example of how not to start & run a political movement.
Kinda like Ron Paul, some of the real issues they bring up get overshadowed
by their craziness.
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

MICAH
Posts: 30
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 13:30

Postby MICAH » 09 Feb 2009 08:47

Freakzilla wrote:
MICAH wrote:-The Elliot Spitzer(Subprime Whistleblower) scandal last year was the 1st red flag for me. Up until that point i never really paid attention, so it's interesting to me to hear your guys' take on things. Speaking of which, i got stopped at the grocery by some LaRouche folks out front today. somebody want to give me a leg up before i crash their little party? :?

Sorry I ruined your Panther Party. :lol:

starting a community pea pod in the spring is about as militant as i'm gonna get for the time being. :D I kinda like Ron Paul. He doesn't seem too Tin Foil Hatlike to me...Yet. What struck me odd about the LaRouche folks was that they kinda gave me a couple selling points & sent me off with a couple free dvd's. Upon watching one of them there were clips of college kids at what seemed like community meetings spouting the same points almost verbatim. Something about that struck me as very odd.I dunno..

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Postby SandRider » 09 Feb 2009 11:47

the word you're looking for is "cultish" ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Feb 2009 18:53

Freakzilla wrote:
Government spending DOES NOT stimulate economies. Look at the US in the '30s seven years of spending didn't work WWII got us out of the depression, look at Japan in the '90s they had like 9 stimuls plans and not until thier gov't stopped fucking with things did it get better. It will only create a drag on recovery.



Umm... 2 examples an absolute case does not make. Spending (when not already buried in debt of course) can indeed stimulate economies very well by injecting money right into the hands of the people who spend it in the market. There are plenty of examples of this working, that said, nothing works 100% of the time of course.
Image

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18293
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Feb 2009 21:33

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Government spending DOES NOT stimulate economies. Look at the US in the '30s seven years of spending didn't work WWII got us out of the depression, look at Japan in the '90s they had like 9 stimuls plans and not until thier gov't stopped fucking with things did it get better. It will only create a drag on recovery.



Umm... 2 examples an absolute case does not make. Spending (when not already buried in debt of course) can indeed stimulate economies very well by injecting money right into the hands of the people who spend it in the market. There are plenty of examples of this working, that said, nothing works 100% of the time of course.


I just caught the end of Obama's Town Hall meeting.

Maybe if they spent a little less money in better places and increased the tax cuts I'd go for it. Trim the pork! Have y'all read some of the crap in that bill?

$1 billion for Amtrak, which hasn’t earned a profit in four decades.


$2 billion to help subsidize child care.


$400 million for research into global warming.


$2.4 billion for projects to demonstrate how carbon greenhouse gas can be safely removed from the atmosphere.


$650 million for coupons to help consumers convert their TV sets from analog to digital, part of the digital TV conversion.


$600 million to buy a new fleet of cars for federal employees and government departments.


$75 million to fund programs to help people quit smoking.


$21 million to re-sod the National Mall, which suffered heavy use during the Inauguration.


$2.25 billion for national parks. This item has sparked calls for an investigation, because the chief lobbyist of the National Parks Association is the son of Rep. David R. Obey, D-Wisc. The $2,25 billion is about equal to the National Park Service’s entire annual budget. The Washington Times reports it is a threefold increase over what was originally proposed for parks in the stimulus bill. Obey is chairman of the House Appropriations Committee.


$335 million for treatment and prevention of sexually transmitted diseases.


$50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts.


$4.19 billion to stave off foreclosures via the Neighborhood Stabilization Program. The bill allows nonprofits to compete with cities and states for $3.44 billion of the money, which means a substantial amount of it will be captured by ACORN, the controversial activist group currently under federal investigation for vote fraud. Another $750 million would be exclusively reserved for nonprofits such as ACORN – meaning cities and states are barred from receiving that money. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., charges the money could appear to be a “payoff” for the partisan political activities community groups in the last election cycle.


$44 million to renovate the headquarters building of the Agriculture Department.


$32 billion for a “smart electricity grid to minimize waste.


$87 billion of Medicaid funds, to aid states.


$53.4 billion for science facilities, high speed Internet, and miscellaneous energy and environmental programs.


$13 billion to repair and weatherize public housing, help the homeless, repair foreclosed homes.


$20 billion for quicker depreciation and write-offs for equipment.


$10.3 billion for tax credits to help families defray the cost of college tuition.


$20 billion over five years for an expanded food stamp program.

I'm not saying those are bad things, I just don't think they're going to stimulate the economy much.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Postby Omphalos » 09 Feb 2009 21:54

Sounds like you did a bit more than "catch the end," doesn't it? :wink:

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2161
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Postby Robspierre » 10 Feb 2009 01:06

Some of those programs are good ideas, I would prefer money to go to prevention and treatment of std's over Abstinence Only programs, a smart electric grid is needed because our infrastructure is bloody outdated, Medicaid's overhead is 3%, there is no way a private entity can do better than that. Like you say several could be cut for a later time but to be honest, it's no worse than Bush's bailout which didn't do squat :lol:

Rob

User avatar
Eyes High
Patience Personified
Posts: 2322
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 15:32
Location: between the worlds of men and make believe

Postby Eyes High » 10 Feb 2009 01:57

Freakzilla wrote:...

I just caught the end of Obama's Town Hall meeting.

Maybe if they spent a little less money in better places and increased the tax cuts I'd go for it. Trim the pork! Have y'all read some of the crap in that bill?

$1 billion for Amtrak, which hasn’t earned a profit in four decades.

...

$600 million to buy a new fleet of cars for federal employees and government departments.

...

$21 million to re-sod the National Mall, which suffered heavy use during the Inauguration.

...

$44 million to renovate the headquarters building of the Agriculture Department.

...

I'm not saying those are bad things, I just don't think they're going to stimulate the economy much.


These are the ones from the list provided that in my opinion can be cut out.

Well Freak pretty much said it all about AMTRAK.

Let the workers drive thier old cars. My husband, oldest son, and I share a '97 Ford WindStar. And the other vehicle that is in the shop right now is a 99. If we can make do with these autos which have over 200 thousand miles on each of them. It won't hurt the government employees to keep driving what they are driving now.

Let the grass grow naturelly. It will take longer but it will recover. We ARE in a depression people. Don't worry how the grass looks. Get people some new jobs.

If the headquarters is in that bad of shape then move them into one of the foreclosed buildings. It should not take that many millions to renovate something. Although I do know a person I would recommend for the job. I'm sure he wouldn't mind the work and from what I've heard he does pretty good home repairs and remodelings. And he might like a break from all the snow where he lives.

Some times I wonder if the 'officials' are officially off their rockers.

Well, I've rambled enough this morning. And I'm sure I've mistyped several words in the process. We will just have to wait and see if any of it reaches the endangered middle-class.
What fear is there in the night?
Nothing, but that which is in our own imaginations.

User avatar
Mandy
Cat Herder
Posts: 1702
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 20:18
Contact:

Postby Mandy » 10 Feb 2009 10:59

How the hell does it cost $21 million for grass?

Also.. the switch to digital has been mishandled from the beginning. If people are not ready for the switch now, they won't be until they have to be. The only people I have sympathy for are the elderly who don't have family around to help them get their TVs hooked up.

(I am selfishly for the money being spent on broadband, lol. I needs high speed internet!)
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

User avatar
Drunken Idaho
Posts: 1197
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Drunken Idaho » 10 Feb 2009 12:29

Freakzilla wrote:I'm not saying those are bad things, I just don't think they're going to stimulate the economy much.


I approve of about 75% of that. The climate change stuff needs to be done anyway (cost of inaction, etc...) although I feel that compared to the other prices, it could use a little more cash. And I also think it's a good idea to help families pay for college tuition.

The Neighborhood Stabilization Program thing does seem out-of-place but I don't take the "voter fraud" thing too seriously. From what I've heard, it was made out to be a much bigger deal than it actually was.

The $53.4 billion for science facilities, high speed Internet, and miscellaneous energy and environmental programs is a good sign.
"The Idahos were never ordinary people."
-Reverend Mother Superior Alma Mavis Taraza

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18293
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Feb 2009 13:33

This is a major crissis in US history, as the President likes to point out and it just pisses me off that they can't leave out the earmarks just one time. I heard this morning that we'll be spending $3 in this stimulus bill to eliminate every $1 of Reserve debt from bank bailouts. Somethings basically wrong with that. I think we're letting the wrong people handle our money.

Dana Carvey did an impression of Ross Perot on SNL a while back and Ross was proposing that if we elect him he get bonuses porportional to deficit decreases and for staying under budget. It was a joke but I'm kind of liking that idea.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Drunken Idaho
Posts: 1197
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Drunken Idaho » 10 Feb 2009 14:01

Well as it turns out, all major bills have earmarks. I think it's a shame that the system relies on these extra benefits to get anything major to pass. It's too bad politicians aren't simply acting on behalf of the people they represent, to the best of their ability.

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that it's the policies and systems in place that are frequently the cause of these problems.
"The Idahos were never ordinary people."
-Reverend Mother Superior Alma Mavis Taraza

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18293
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Feb 2009 14:20

That's one of the things I don't like about Obama's plans, they will massively increase the size and power of the government.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Mandy
Cat Herder
Posts: 1702
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 20:18
Contact:

Postby Mandy » 10 Feb 2009 19:28

I worry anytime a politician says they need to pass something in a hurry.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

User avatar
trang
Posts: 1224
Joined: 06 May 2008 18:59
Location: Hot Tub Time Machine
Contact:

Postby trang » 10 Feb 2009 20:39

Id swing a dead cat in here if it would help!!!!
"Long Live the Fighters", "Dragon.....the other white meat."

Image

User avatar
Tyrant
Posts: 381
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:45
Location: Kansas City, MO

Postby Tyrant » 11 Feb 2009 09:44

Freakzilla wrote:$4.19 billion to stave off foreclosures via the Neighborhood Stabilization Program. The bill allows nonprofits to compete with cities and states for $3.44 billion of the money, which means a substantial amount of it will be captured by ACORN, the controversial activist group currently under federal investigation for vote fraud. Another $750 million would be exclusively reserved for nonprofits such as ACORN – meaning cities and states are barred from receiving that money. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., charges the money could appear to be a “payoff” for the partisan political activities community groups in the last election cycle. .


hmm..i dont know alot about ACORN..but i do know they help low income families purchase homes that wouldnt have been able to buy one any other way. me and my wife almost used them a few years back, and they were the only way at the time we would've been able to buy a house
Your friendly neighborhood Tyrant!!!

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18293
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Feb 2009 09:55

Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Postby SandRider » 11 Feb 2009 12:12

great word, "accusations" - smears characters & reputations without all the fuss and
bother .... like calling Bill Ayers a "terrorist" over and over until it becomes conventional
wisdom.

I seem to recall a big hoopla made over some investigation and special prosecutor's report
a few years back. Was going to have all kinds of damning information and details of shady
land deals, savings and loan pillaging, cover-ups, threats & maybe even a few murders,
cocaine dealing, &etc. It was called the "Starr Report", but when we finally got it, all that
was there was a few drops of come on a girl's dress .....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008