Great Depression 2009

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Robspierre
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Postby Robspierre » 11 Feb 2009 13:34

Freakzilla wrote:That's one of the things I don't like about Obama's plans, they will massively increase the size and power of the government.


Bush did that too and Bush actively circumvented the constitution :D

For my math appreciation class we had to do a paper on the the sub prime loans and what surprised me was according to the industries own figures from 1998-2006 9% of the sub-prime loans went to first time home owners and 11% from 2006-2008. Turns out a bunch of them were second mortgages. Also, Morgan Stanley was busted for having its people lie about buyers income so that they could be eligible. I will give Obama this, unlike Bush you are seeing where the money is ear marked, with BushCo. they said trust us and let the people who put us in this mess rape the country for 750 billion. Where is the outrage from conservatives over the handout from Bush, there was zero accountability there. Fair play.

Amtrack would be profitable if they just ran in the northeast corridor and parts of the west coast, since they have the volume necessary for a rail service.

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Postby Drunken Idaho » 12 Feb 2009 14:24

Hmm, I didn't even know our financial systems were that different. I guess I had a feeling that there was more regulation here though. Very interesting!
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Drunken Idaho
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 12 Feb 2009 15:13

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:Hmm, I didn't even know our financial systems were that different. I guess I had a feeling that there was more regulation here though. Very interesting!



ya.. I'll grant the Liberals this: they didn't follow the lead of Clinton in the 90s on deregulation and that, along with paying down our debt has a big role in keeping us strong in the current situation. sure there'll be job losses, but in the end, we won't have to go nearly as far in debt to combat these trends.


Huzzah! Yeah, I keep hearing that it won't be quite as bad as in the US. Still pretty bad though, I'm sure.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Feb 2009 19:02

I had a pretty good idea of how different we were in that area, too bad the US gov can't go back in time and fix it.

It's unfortunate that one local economy has so great an effect on the rest of the world. Oh well, the company I work for is having a record month every month right now, so obviously I haven't been very hard hit. :wink: Glad I'm not from Iceland.
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2009 20:47

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I had a pretty good idea of how different we were in that area, too bad the US gov can't go back in time and fix it.

It's unfortunate that one local economy has so great an effect on the rest of the world. Oh well, the company I work for is having a record month every month right now, so obviously I haven't been very hard hit. :wink: Glad I'm not from Iceland.


That's because we're 4.53% of the world population but have nearly the purchasing power of the EU.

I think the whole situation reflects the way the US lives off borrowed money, right up through the government. One of the lessons of Dune is that mistakes made by a charismatic leader are amplified by his followers. This seems like the opposite. Either way, the bill eventually comes due and before long you get cut off.

Right now the President and Congress seem like they're just spending as much money and grabbing as much power as they can before the whole thing collapses, like a 18-year-old in Pannama City with an AMEX card.
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Phaedrus
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Postby Phaedrus » 16 Feb 2009 07:44

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I had a pretty good idea of how different we were in that area, too bad the US gov can't go back in time and fix it.

It's unfortunate that one local economy has so great an effect on the rest of the world. Oh well, the company I work for is having a record month every month right now, so obviously I haven't been very hard hit. :wink: Glad I'm not from Iceland.


That's because we're 4.53% of the world population but have nearly the purchasing power of the EU.

I think the whole situation reflects the way the US lives off borrowed money, right up through the government. One of the lessons of Dune is that mistakes made by a charismatic leader are amplified by his followers. This seems like the opposite. Either way, the bill eventually comes due and before long you get cut off.

Right now the President and Congress seem like they're just spending as much money and grabbing as much power as they can before the whole thing collapses, like a 18-year-old in Pannama City with an AMEX card.


I haven't bothered to read through this entire thread...but yeah, that's kind of the point.

Basic Keynesian macroeconomics says that the best thing to do when you've got high unemployment, high inflation, and falling economic growth is to increase government spending and lower taxes. This is exactly what the government is doing...what's wrong with that again?

The problem is that Keynesian economics also says that when the economy is going strong, you should raise taxes and lower government spending. That's never been done before in this country.

Also: deficit != debt. A massive amount of the money that's being "borrowed" isn't really being borrowed from other countries, it's one part of the government lending money to another part. The Department of Defense actually owes a huge sum of money to Social Security. The actual national debt is a lot lower than most people think.
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Postby SandRider » 17 Feb 2009 22:53

email from barackobama.com to my real email address, today :

Today, I signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act into law.

This is a historic step -- the first of many as we work together to climb out of this crisis -- and I want to thank you for your resolve and your support.

You organized thousands of house meetings. You shared your ideas and personal stories. And you informed your friends and neighbors about the need for immediate action. You continue to be a powerful voice for change throughout the country.

The recovery plan will create or save 3.5 million jobs, provide tax cuts for working and middle-class families, and invest in health care and clean energy.

It's a bold plan to address a huge problem, and it will require my vigilance and yours to make sure it's done right.

I've assigned a team of managers to oversee the implementation of the recovery act. We are committed to making sure no dollar is wasted. But accountability begins with you.

That's why my administration has created Recovery.gov, a new website where citizens can track every dollar spent and every job created. We'll invite you and your neighbors to weigh in with comments and questions.

Our progress will also be measured by the tens of thousands of personal stories submitted by people who are struggling to make ends meet. If you haven't already, you can read stories from families all across the country:

http://my.barackobama.com/yourstories

Your stories are the heart of this recovery plan, and that's what I'll focus on every day as President.

With your continued support, we'll emerge a stronger and more prosperous nation.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama

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Postby Dune Nerd » 18 Feb 2009 00:16

Baraka Bryan wrote:
SandRider wrote:email from barackobama.com to my real email address, today :

...
Thank you,

President Barack Obama



I bet he wrote it himself too and sent it from his desk in the oval office ... he cares that much


I never saw Bush proclaiming where the money he spent went to....

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Postby orald » 18 Feb 2009 00:30

Why did they have to buy homes anyeway? Can't they rent?

The greedy animals always want to live above their stations.
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 18 Feb 2009 10:02

Dune Nerd wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
SandRider wrote:email from barackobama.com to my real email address, today :

...
Thank you,

President Barack Obama



I bet he wrote it himself too and sent it from his desk in the oval office ... he cares that much


I never saw Bush proclaiming where the money he spent went to....


Of course not! That would be a breach of National Security. It was always National Security!!

But yeah, it's good to see a president embracing such advanced technology as the internet.
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Postby Freakzilla » 18 Feb 2009 10:26

Drunken Idaho wrote:
Dune Nerd wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
SandRider wrote:email from barackobama.com to my real email address, today :

...
Thank you,

President Barack Obama



I bet he wrote it himself too and sent it from his desk in the oval office ... he cares that much


I never saw Bush proclaiming where the money he spent went to....


Of course not! That would be a breach of National Security. It was always National Security!!

But yeah, it's good to see a president embracing such advanced technology as the internet.


Yeah, he'd be lost without his teleprompter.
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Postby SandRider » 18 Feb 2009 13:24

Freak wrote:Yeah, he'd be lost without his teleprompter.


that's just a potshot and you know it, freak.
you've seen the man speak off the cuff.

I was surprised at this Recovery.org thing. May be a horrible idea, esp. when a lot of this plan
doesn't/can't work. (Fucking Biden (off the cuff, btw) : "We could do everything 100% right, and
we'd still have a 30% chance of failing....")

But the spirit of openness and an appeance of accountability is something I've never seen in an
American Executive before. It's going to bite him in the ass, hard, but good effort ...

And I'm still getting all kinds of daily emails, on policy now. I figured that would taper off after the
election - I was still getting "please donate $25" emails into January. But I think they thought they've
set up these websites, and have a huge mailing list, let's use it ....

(it's pimpin', pimpin'...)
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 18 Feb 2009 13:44

Oh his teleprompter skills are magnificent, it's a shame none of it means anything.

His doom and gloom prophecies (scare tacticts) of disater if his stimulus bill didn't pass is going to bite him in the ass too. That in itself probably scared the shit out of Wall Street.

It would be fun to sit back and watch his blaze of glory if I wasn't along for the ride.
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Postby Freakzilla » 18 Feb 2009 14:33

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From NYT
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Postby SandRider » 18 Feb 2009 14:38

haters ....
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I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 18 Feb 2009 14:39

I'm not hatin' the playa, I hate the game.

:wink:
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 18 Feb 2009 15:23

Don't hate! Regulate!
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Postby moreh_yeladim » 18 Feb 2009 20:22

orald wrote:Why did they have to buy homes anyeway? Can't they rent?

The greedy animals always want to live above their stations.

And what is their station? Their station is what they can afford.
Brian Herbert is a perfect example of why you shouldn't leave a universe-spanning empire to your next of kin.

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Postby Freakzilla » 18 Feb 2009 21:12

moreh_yeladim wrote:
orald wrote:Why did they have to buy homes anyeway? Can't they rent?

The greedy animals always want to live above their stations.

And what is their station? Their station is what they can afford.


Some people aquire massive debts to live the "American Dream". Credit cards, mortgages, cars, etc. Banks had lowered their standards and were giving loans away to anyone. Lenders were giving Adjustable Rate Mortgages to first time buyers. Loans meant to be refinanced within a couple of years before the rate went up and payments increased to where the borrower couldn't afford it. These loans were meant for people who "flip" houses; buy them cheap, renovate, refinance and sell for profit. They ran up all the credit cards they got in the mail to pay the bills. It was all more than they could afford to begin with and it eventaully all comes crashing down.
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Postby Eyes High » 18 Feb 2009 23:24

moreh_yeladim wrote:
orald wrote:Why did they have to buy homes anyeway? Can't they rent?

The greedy animals always want to live above their stations.

And what is their station? Their station is what they can afford.


Besides, rent payments will never stop. A house payment will eventually end. The smart thing would have been to realize what one could afford and plan around that. The buying of a house was not the issue. It was that fine print that so many forget to read and understand.

And like Freakzilla said. Relying too heavily on credit cards in order to live the "American Dream" (If I understood his post correctly.)
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Postby SandRider » 19 Feb 2009 04:36

okay, so let's blame the real culprit :

There's a reason it's called the American Dream;
you have to be fucking asleep to believe it.

~ George Carlin
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Feb 2009 06:56

Renting is throwing money away. Owning a home is the first step in accumulating any kind of real wealth, besides just saving cash.
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Feb 2009 10:54

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Renting is throwing money away. Owning a home is the first step in accumulating any kind of real wealth, besides just saving cash.


absolutely. i'm only renting here in TOronto because it's a temporary stint at an internship. as soon as I'm back in Hamilton, I'm buying a place near the university and renting it out to students to pay the mortgage and create some real capital.


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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 19 Feb 2009 14:25

Freakzilla wrote:Renting is throwing money away. Owning a home is the first step in accumulating any kind of real wealth, besides just saving cash.


Actually, there are situations where depending on the value of the land vs the house and the interest rates that you actually can save more money renting than buying. That said, 99 times out of 100 you're correct.
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Feb 2009 14:33

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Renting is throwing money away. Owning a home is the first step in accumulating any kind of real wealth, besides just saving cash.


Actually, there are situations where depending on the value of the land vs the house and the interest rates that you actually can save more money renting than buying. That said, 99 times out of 100 you're correct.


You may be making a lower payment but none of that is going toward equity in the property.

So you actually are making money paying the more expensive house payments since you will one day own it.
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