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Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 21:11

The socialist thing is yet to be proven, it is just what I suspect is happening.

Most of these programs that Obama thinks will stimulate the economy, like building bridges, aren't going to come down the pipe for years.

Why else is none of the other programs proposed given even consideration?

Why do they not listen to the economics experts who say this will lead us into disaster?

Because they have an agenda.

A two year tax holiday would have fixed this whole mess, but then you can't funnel money into pet projects.
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Postby Crysknife » 05 Mar 2009 22:19

If you want my opinion, the stock market is just adjusting itself to where it should have really been all along. What we are seeing are the rats leaving the kitchen because there's a new Janitor in the house who isn't going to take their shit and let them get away with stuff like Bush did.

Bush ruled over the greatest expansion of government in this nations history. Didn't you love his no-bid contracts as well?

Hannity is so out of touch with the American people that it's actually kind of sad. You always hear him rave about things like the Cadillac Escalade Hybrid and how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. "They let me drive the thing and it's great....I cream myself every time I step on the gas.... everyone should buy one". Uh, ok Mr. Hannity, like everyone and their fucking grandma can just go out and buy a Cadillac. You do know that's why GM is going bankrupt in the first damn place, right? You flying fuck.

Not everyone can be a millionaire radio talk show host like Mr. Hannity. There has to be worker bees as well.

And tax breaks? While they would be nice I guess, I’d rather have officers in the street with the equipment needed to get the bad guys, Firemen, also well equipped, national parks and rangers so I can enjoy them…..you know, stuff like that. I’d also like to have health insurance that didn’t bankrupt me. Why is it ok to hate taxes but as soon as someone attacks our health care system were called socialists?

I see government as part of the solution, not part of the problem. I help elect these people and it’s them that I want in charge of this stuff. But we keep electing people that don’t like government and we wonder why these systems fail. I don’t want a greedy CEO in charge of anything like that. That person has no obligation to me as long as he can get away with it.
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Postby SandRider » 05 Mar 2009 22:48

it's not a "conspiracy", Freak.

George W. Bush believed the best way to secure America was to
secure the Middle East. The best way to do that, in his mind, was
to plant 500K US troops smack in the middle of it, and destroy
anyone who opposed it. This was the plan before he took office,
before 9/11. The overthrow of Saddam and the occupation of
Iraq was a given.

Secure Middle East oilfields, protect Saudi Arabia, protect Israel,
keep Iran in check, this was all the plan. It wasn't even much of a
secret.

Now, it was just FUCKING WRONG FROM THE BEGINNING,
even before 9/11, and the lies and twisted intelligence to sell the invasion
just added more bullshit to the shit-pie.

GWB wasn't stupid OR evil, just FUCKING WRONG.

just as Barack might be.
history will judge ....


}and.....fuck, I missed a whole page of posts ....
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Postby Crysknife » 06 Mar 2009 01:16

That would be great, but it's the conservative party in this country that actually lowered a tax credit for home buyers from 15,000 to 8,000. Democrats wanted the higher number. Republicans are also delaying the bill.

And it is just a loan, you still have to pay it back. But I agree with you, they are nice and I support them.
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Postby Crysknife » 06 Mar 2009 01:33

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Crysknife wrote:That would be great, but it's the conservative party in this country that actually lowered a tax credit for home buyers from 15,000 to 8,000. Democrats wanted the higher number. Republicans are also delaying the bill.

And it is just a loan, you still have to pay it back. But I agree with you, they are nice and I support them.



up here it's simply personal spending that you don't pay any taxes on. similar to not having to pay taxes on money given to charities. except this is your own personal charity fund :D


I see, that sounds interesting.
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Postby GamePlayer » 06 Mar 2009 14:31

Baraka Bryan wrote:i wanna debate, bitches :P


Conservatives suck!

Let the debate begin! :P :wink:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 14:35

Baraka Bryan wrote:cmon guys.. you're going nuts with the posting for hours and then i post another position and the conversation dies?!?

i wanna debate, bitches :P


I don't dissagree with what you said. I agree that lowering very specifically targeted taxes like that would be a good idea to get money flowing. No body said socialism was the answer or the plan, don't quite know where that comment came from? :? I think the gov should be working this from both angles right now, targeted tax exemptions like you've suggested as well as spending on make-work stimulus shit like infrastructure. You know me, I like capitalism in some situations and socialism in others, both work well in the right situations and both crash and burn in the wrong. I'm still not voting for the Cs. :lol:

The best stimulus package is slander commercials against another party leader, when there isn't even an election. That's what the gov really needs to be doing right now. :wink:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 14:48

Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:cmon guys.. you're going nuts with the posting for hours and then i post another position and the conversation dies?!?

i wanna debate, bitches :P


I don't disagree with what you said. I agree that lowering very specifically targeted taxes like that would be a good idea to get money flowing. No body said socialism was the answer or the plan, don't quite know where that comment came from? :? I think the gov should be working this from both angles right now, targeted tax exemptions like you've suggested as well as spending on make-work stimulus shit like infrastructure. You know me, I like capitalism in some situations and socialism in others, both work well in the right situations and both crash and burn in the wrong. I'm still not voting for the Cs. :lol:
I agree on the two-front approach to the problem.. seems like we only disagree on which should be emphasized, spending or tax credits/cuts.


Actually, since I don't know the numbers, it's very possible that we don't disagree at all. If I really knew the details I might be able to say which we need more of and which less, and I might even lean your way, but I don't know the details. As long as the tax exemptions are aimed mostly at the lower and middle classes I think they'll work well, I think "trickle down" tax exemptions are where it usually goes wrong, so I'd like to see less of those (note: not none, just that the focus should be on ground up economics). And as long as there are work projects where needed to make sure that the lower/middle classes actually have money to spend (tax exemptions are worthless if no one has cash to spend) I think it'll all work out fine.

The best stimulus package is slander commercials against another party leader, when there isn't even an election. That's what the gov really needs to be doing right now. :wink:

glad you see it our way ;)
(careful you don't mix up the government with the governing party, eh)


Good point. I should have said "that's what the Cs really need to be doing". :oops:

Why are they pulling that crap anyways? We need a gov referee or something to keep these children in line and with their minds on their jobs.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 14:56

Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:The best stimulus package is slander commercials against another party leader, when there isn't even an election. That's what the gov really needs to be doing right now. :wink:
bb wrote:glad you see it our way ;)
(careful you don't mix up the government with the governing party, eh)


Good point. I should have said "that's what the Cs really need to be doing". :oops:

Why are they pulling that crap anyways? We need a gov referee or something to keep these children in line and with their minds on their jobs.


i think it has to do with iggy's popularity.. they didn't pull it when he first got vaulted in as leader because they needed him to support the budget... now they can define him and use their cash advantage for when he inevitably pulls the plug.


Glad to know they're concentrating on running the country after their holiday. :roll: We need a new system of parliment, this one's broken.

EDIT: what did you think about my other comments?
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Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 15:34

Baraka Bryan wrote:cmon guys.. you're going nuts with the posting for hours and then i post another position and the conversation dies?!?

i wanna debate, bitches :P


It never dies.

It only begins new life spans when new voices add to the conversation... I am one of those people who think Tommy Douglas was indeed the Greatist Canadian.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 16:04

Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:The best stimulus package is slander commercials against another party leader, when there isn't even an election. That's what the gov really needs to be doing right now. :wink:
bb wrote:glad you see it our way ;)
(careful you don't mix up the government with the governing party, eh)


Good point. I should have said "that's what the Cs really need to be doing". :oops:

Why are they pulling that crap anyways? We need a gov referee or something to keep these children in line and with their minds on their jobs.


i think it has to do with iggy's popularity.. they didn't pull it when he first got vaulted in as leader because they needed him to support the budget... now they can define him and use their cash advantage for when he inevitably pulls the plug.


Glad to know they're concentrating on running the country after their holiday. :roll: We need a new system of parliment, this one's broken.

EDIT: what did you think about my other comments?


hey, if the Libs had any cash right now they'd be doing the exact same thing :P The NDP is running attacks against the Cs but I don't hear you bitching about them. (again, remember the difference between the party and the government... Harper is country focussed, as are the ministers and their staffs. their ongoing party staff and strategy people have no say over the government, and are focussed on the party, as they should be... it's true to an extent that at least they're spending money and keeping people employed, even if it's for nothing more than politic-ing :P)


I was unaware of the NDP ads, I condemn that as well. Waste of time and money, they should all grow up. As far as the jobs, those people could be doing something productive. Plenty of work to be done.

as for your other comments, I agree that people need money before they can take advantage of these tax credits, and that's the great thing about our country right now. we're in great shape relative to the US... they're up to 8.1% unemployment right now.. we're still hovering around 7%. our banks are sound.. their's are crumbling. sure our stock market isn't doing any better than theirs, but the lower-middle class people you're talking about probably don't have stocks anyways so only those with disposable income are being severely hit by that, (poor warren buffet :P).

the stimulus spending the government is undertaking is sound and their desire to get it to shovel-ready projects is what is needed to get the cash flowing now. but I am glad to see that a good proportion of the $35B deficit they'll run this year is caught up in tax reduction measures, as this is what encourages those with money to spend now as well. (the renovation one alone is estimated to cost the government $2.5-3B of the $35)

The best thing for the small-business contractor who's struggling to make ends meet right now is to get a $10,000 contract from that rich guy uptown who wants to take advantage of the tax benefits. That type of trickle down stimulus works and is already working. The best thing for the housing market is for individuals like myself to want to buy now rather than later to take advantage of tax benefits. The best thing for environment in a time of turmoil where green projects will easily fall under the budget axe is for people to undergo green projects for the tax benefits.

that's the reason I support this deficit budget. Yes, it grates across my fiscal conservative tendencies, but times of economic turmoil call for ideology to fall to the wayside in favour of what is best for the economy at the time, and those are the types of adjustments I feel Harper and co. are doing now.

I think we mostly agree on the method and while there may be



Looks like you got cut off there. I agree with your comment about the rich guy, but that's not really trickle down economics, that's somewhere inbetween bottom up and trickle down. When I say less trickle down tax exemptions I think you know I mean tax cuts to the the large companies themselves. Not that they don't work sometimes, or that we should not have them at all, I just think they should be by far the minority. Like I said though, I really don't know the specific numbers on what the gov is doing right now, so I have no clear opinion on whether they're doing the right things or not. Sounds like they have it reasonably under control though and I'll trust them with it.
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Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 16:10

Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:The best stimulus package is slander commercials against another party leader, when there isn't even an election. That's what the gov really needs to be doing right now. :wink:
bb wrote:glad you see it our way ;)
(careful you don't mix up the government with the governing party, eh)


Good point. I should have said "that's what the Cs really need to be doing". :oops:

Why are they pulling that crap anyways? We need a gov referee or something to keep these children in line and with their minds on their jobs.


i think it has to do with iggy's popularity.. they didn't pull it when he first got vaulted in as leader because they needed him to support the budget... now they can define him and use their cash advantage for when he inevitably pulls the plug.


Glad to know they're concentrating on running the country after their holiday. :roll: We need a new system of parliment, this one's broken.

EDIT: what did you think about my other comments?


hey, if the Libs had any cash right now they'd be doing the exact same thing :P The NDP is running attacks against the Cs but I don't hear you bitching about them. (again, remember the difference between the party and the government... Harper is country focussed, as are the ministers and their staffs. their ongoing party staff and strategy people have no say over the government, and are focussed on the party, as they should be... it's true to an extent that at least they're spending money and keeping people employed, even if it's for nothing more than politic-ing :P)

as for your other comments, I agree that people need money before they can take advantage of these tax credits, and that's the great thing about our country right now. we're in great shape relative to the US... they're up to 8.1% unemployment right now.. we're still hovering around 7%. our banks are sound.. their's are crumbling. sure our stock market isn't doing any better than theirs, but the lower-middle class people you're talking about probably don't have stocks anyways so only those with disposable income are being severely hit by that, (poor warren buffet :P).

the stimulus spending the government is undertaking is sound and their desire to get it to shovel-ready projects is what is needed to get the cash flowing now. but I am glad to see that a good proportion of the $35B deficit they'll run this year is caught up in tax reduction measures, as this is what encourages those with money to spend now as well. (the renovation one alone is estimated to cost the government $2.5-3B of the $35)

The best thing for the small-business contractor who's struggling to make ends meet right now is to get a $10,000 contract from that rich guy uptown who wants to take advantage of the tax benefits. That type of trickle down stimulus works and is already working. The best thing for the housing market is for individuals like myself to want to buy now rather than later to take advantage of tax benefits. The best thing for environment in a time of turmoil where green projects will easily fall under the budget axe is for people to undergo green projects for the tax benefits.

that's the reason I support this deficit budget. Yes, it grates across my fiscal conservative tendencies, but times of economic turmoil call for ideology to fall to the wayside in favour of what is best for the economy at the time, and those are the types of adjustments I feel Harper and co. are doing now.

I think we mostly agree on the method and while there may be


you lost me at "trickle down economics works" but I respect your opinion

Most Liberals think "trickle down economics" is just a way for the rich to get richer. But some of us real lefty lefty types would bring back Karl Marx if we could. :lol:

Well, at least bring back Tommy Douglas
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 16:12

Dear gods, no Marx for me please! :lol:
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Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 16:18

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Dear gods, no Marx for me please! :lol:


Was he that bad? I said Tommy Douglas would do.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 16:25

SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Dear gods, no Marx for me please! :lol:


Was he that bad? I said Tommy Douglas would do.


I haven't read any Douglas yet so I don't know about him. As far as Marx, I get called a socialist enough around here, don't need to fuel the flames. :wink: (I haven't read that that much of his work either though, but he's a wee bit left for me based on what I do know...)
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Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 16:42

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Dear gods, no Marx for me please! :lol:


Was he that bad? I said Tommy Douglas would do.


I haven't read any Douglas yet so I don't know about him. As far as Marx, I get called a socialist enough around here, don't need to fuel the flames. :wink: (I haven't read that that much of his work either though, but he's a wee bit left for me based on what I do know...)


He is as far left as you can go, state property makes most capitalists cringe is disguest. But to me it makes a lot of sense. Of course it never works in practice the way it sounds in writing, but still I look at Cuba for example with a 99% literacy rate and I say well, what is ours again 70% the USA is at like 65% maybe lower Im not even sure. But free education is hard to argue with.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 16:55

SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Dear gods, no Marx for me please! :lol:


Was he that bad? I said Tommy Douglas would do.


I haven't read any Douglas yet so I don't know about him. As far as Marx, I get called a socialist enough around here, don't need to fuel the flames. :wink: (I haven't read that that much of his work either though, but he's a wee bit left for me based on what I do know...)


He is as far left as you can go, state property makes most capitalists cringe is disguest. But to me it makes a lot of sense. Of course it never works in practice the way it sounds in writing, but still I look at Cuba for example with a 99% literacy rate and I say well, what is ours again 70% the USA is at like 65% maybe lower Im not even sure. But free education is hard to argue with.


See, that's just a wee ( :wink: ) bit too much for me. I agree with free education and healthcare and so forth, but I don't think human beings as a whole have anything even aproaching the morals and work ethic that would be necessary to make a fully socialist society function. If everybody had those values and stuck to them socialism would work great - but so would capitalism. Unfortunately, people don't seem to have what it takes, so I will always advocate the middle.
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Postby Mr. Teg » 07 Mar 2009 01:29

SandRider wrote:it's not a "conspiracy", Freak.

George W. Bush believed the best way to secure America was to
secure the Middle East. The best way to do that, in his mind, was
to plant 500K US troops smack in the middle of it, and destroy
anyone who opposed it. This was the plan before he took office,
before 9/11. The overthrow of Saddam and the occupation of
Iraq was a given.

Secure Middle East oilfields, protect Saudi Arabia, protect Israel,
keep Iran in check, this was all the plan. It wasn't even much of a
secret.

Now, it was just FUCKING WRONG FROM THE BEGINNING,
even before 9/11, and the lies and twisted intelligence to sell the invasion
just added more bullshit to the shit-pie.

GWB wasn't stupid OR evil, just FUCKING WRONG.

just as Barack might be.
history will judge ....


}and.....fuck, I missed a whole page of posts ....


Look at his record before he was elected.
Mess after mess.
Why anyone would've suggested putting GWB in office is simply amazing.

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Postby Omphalos » 07 Mar 2009 05:33

SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Dear gods, no Marx for me please! :lol:


Was he that bad? I said Tommy Douglas would do.


I haven't read any Douglas yet so I don't know about him. As far as Marx, I get called a socialist enough around here, don't need to fuel the flames. :wink: (I haven't read that that much of his work either though, but he's a wee bit left for me based on what I do know...)


He is as far left as you can go, state property makes most capitalists cringe is disguest. But to me it makes a lot of sense. Of course it never works in practice the way it sounds in writing, but still I look at Cuba for example with a 99% literacy rate and I say well, what is ours again 70% the USA is at like 65% maybe lower Im not even sure. But free education is hard to argue with.


Who gives a shit what the theorists think? Its communal ownership in practice that scares the crap out of most folks. Capitalists will tell you its the theory that they don't like. Well, maybe they have some problems with the disincentives that communal ownership create with regards to maintenance and innovation. But the thing that scares most westerners is what rulers of the last century did with communist systems.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Mar 2009 01:23

Omphalos wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Dear gods, no Marx for me please! :lol:


Was he that bad? I said Tommy Douglas would do.


I haven't read any Douglas yet so I don't know about him. As far as Marx, I get called a socialist enough around here, don't need to fuel the flames. :wink: (I haven't read that that much of his work either though, but he's a wee bit left for me based on what I do know...)


He is as far left as you can go, state property makes most capitalists cringe is disguest. But to me it makes a lot of sense. Of course it never works in practice the way it sounds in writing, but still I look at Cuba for example with a 99% literacy rate and I say well, what is ours again 70% the USA is at like 65% maybe lower Im not even sure. But free education is hard to argue with.


Who gives a shit what the theorists think? Its communal ownership in practice that scares the crap out of most folks. Capitalists will tell you its the theory that they don't like. Well, maybe they have some problems with the disincentives that communal ownership create with regards to maintenance and innovation. But the thing that scares most westerners is what rulers of the last century did with communist systems.


I don't like the theory OR the reality much myself.
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Postby Crysknife » 08 Mar 2009 02:28

Republicans love the military, which just happens to be a completely socialist system. Their churches could also be considered socialist…..and we know how churches like conflict.

They hate public education, which happens to be a socialist system.

I guess if they let kids go to school with bombs they might go for it :?:
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Postby Freakzilla » 08 Mar 2009 10:31

The military is socialist becase it is a service, people don't join the military to make money. It certainly doesn't make money for us, unless you the hundreds of thousands of jobs created by defense contractors, like Lockheed-Martin which IS the town I grew up in, Marietta, GA. Who knows what percentage of Honeywell's contracts are military.

I moved where I live for the quality of the public schools, now they are rezoning and going to bus my kids across the county to a white-trash school. If don't want my kids to go to that school I should be able to get a voucher to send them to a school of my choice.

The churches can all go to hell.
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Postby SwordMaster » 09 Mar 2009 19:39

Crysknife wrote:Republicans love the military, which just happens to be a completely socialist system. Their churches could also be considered socialist…..and we know how churches like conflict.

They hate public education, which happens to be a socialist system.

I guess if they let kids go to school with bombs they might go for it :?:


Public education is the corner stone to a leadeing nation. Otherwise you miss out on possible great people who were too poor for school... otherwise highly productive people wasted because of low income...

Freakzilla wrote:The military is socialist becase it is a service, people don't join the military to make money. It certainly doesn't make money for us, unless you the hundreds of thousands of jobs created by defense contractors, like Lockheed-Martin which IS the town I grew up in, Marietta, GA. Who knows what percentage of Honeywell's contracts are military.

I moved where I live for the quality of the public schools, now they are rezoning and going to bus my kids across the county to a white-trash school. If don't want my kids to go to that school I should be able to get a voucher to send them to a school of my choice.

The churches can all go to hell.


I think you have that right, but the Bureaucracy is expanding, to meet the needs of the expanding Bureaucracy. Sorry to hear about that FZ, sounds like an example of "making work" for the administrators. Poor use of tax money. Early education is difficult enough, but to add travel to a new place, just add to the stress of the students.
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