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Posted: 10 Mar 2009 04:54
by chanilover
Schu wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:my bigotry admission is absofuckinglutly hating the 'gay accent' and haughty attitude/culture that is adopted by some homosexuals. That should be criminal.


I absolutely agree. I hate camp accents and mannerisms and have no idea why that would turn anyone on. But it's just another of the many things that irritate me. I usually figure that people that adopt camp mannerisms like that are probably making too big a show of their sexuality deliberately, and are posturing just a little. Some people seem to just grow up with them though, so who knows.


Camp people are appalling. It's the biggest turn off, but some gayers like to wear their gayness as some sort of badge of honour. It's like they want to be known as the gay guy, rather than be known as a guy who happens to be gay.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 07:59
by SandChigger
Gayers? Gay is a verb, too, now? ;)

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 08:37
by SwordMaster
chanilover wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the problem in the US (especially the South) is that for the most part, white people are not racist, yet black people, who have never been slaves, have been born in this country with MORE RIGHTS than white people, keep rubbing out noses in what happened 400 years ago.

Freeman is right. If they stopped playing the race card at every possible turn, it might go a long way towards healing.

But therein lies another problem. Black people don't seem to want to be equal. I think they like it the way it is. They get special treatment, why would they want that to stop? They WANT to be different. If they didn't, they wouldn't call themselves "african-americans", but just Americans. Why give up thier trump card?

I'm proud of my heritage (to the disdain of black people) but I don't call myself european-american.

Now, if I found myself in Africa, I would do my best to fit in, but that doesn't mean I have to forget my heritage.


You make some good points although I have difficulty co-signing to this, I am one who feels that to some extent, we do have to make up for the mistakes of our ancesters... how we do that is another matter all together!?!


I don't agree with that. How can a group be held responsible for the actions of its ancestors? And if they're not being held responsible for the actions of their ancestors, then they have no responsibility to make up for the mistakes of those ancestors.

Ken Livingstone, former mayor of London, issued an apology in 1997 for London's role in the transatlantic slave trade. On the whole I thought he was a decent enough mayor, he certainly had London's best interests at heart, but this apology left me and a lot of other people cold. He didn't ask Londoners whether he could apologise on our behalf. No one knew who he was apologising to - a load of long-dead people, it seems. And no one knew who he was apologising on behalf of. Long-dead Londoners? Today's Londoners? A high proportion of our ancestors weren't in London at the time of the slave trade - mine were in Ireland and the Philippines. Does that make me exempt for the need to apologise? In that case, am I less of a Londoner than a white Londoner whose ancestors were in London at the time of the trade? The idea of a country as ethnically diverse as the UK having to apologise for the sins of its WHITE ancestors is divisive. Would black Londoners have to apologise to themselves for the slave trade?


We all have our own take on things, in how we decide to deal with issues like this one. And believe me I do not only feel guilt on the race issues of the past, but I also feel guilt about my ancestor's violent crusades through the Middle East and Europe.

I don’t mean that we must apologize, that is a really weak way to make amends. However by living a more inclusive and accepting life and not repeating similar mistakes. I do not think language can possibly suffice for what only a life of action towards racial harmony and reconciliation can begin to make progress towards. I was only stating that part of my motivation (not all) stems from knowing the mistakes made by my people in the past.

Now we look at this example of slaves and you want to say I never owned a slave, my parents did not, and my grandparents did not. Well that is fine, but what about how they treated black people during their life time. Did they not contribute to the racial tension that now exists?

Let’s look at how we have treated the Islamic people, over the past 40 years. If we really want to put an end to terrorists who want to kill us, can we not also look at what we have done to cause this? I am not supporting their violence, I am simply pointing out that they did not start to hate us for no reason. Islam is not violent by design.

But like I said, its just my choice of how to live I am not trying to tell the rest of you what to do, or how to live your life.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 08:41
by SwordMaster
Schu wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:my bigotry admission is absofuckinglutly hating the 'gay accent' and haughty attitude/culture that is adopted by some homosexuals. That should be criminal.


I absolutely agree. I hate camp accents and mannerisms and have no idea why that would turn anyone on. But it's just another of the many things that irritate me. I usually figure that people that adopt camp mannerisms like that are probably making too big a show of their sexuality deliberately, and are posturing just a little. Some people seem to just grow up with them though, so who knows.


I kind of like the lisp though, like the way Tim Gun does it when he is telling people how to dress.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 08:44
by SwordMaster
Freakzilla wrote:You must also realize that all these stereotypes that people have for races are not entirely without cause. That jeweler may have been robbed by a latino.


I would say that is the definition of racism. Unfortunately you are correct FZ, I myself have struggled through this very difficulty, and fight the urge to clump races together because of the actions of one or a small group.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 09:23
by SandChigger
SwordMaster wrote:We all have our own take on things, in how we decide to deal with issues like this one. And believe me I do not only feel guilt on the race issues of the past, but I also feel guilt about my ancestor's violent crusades through the Middle East and Europe.

I'm sorry, but going that far back? That is really just silly.

You can feel bad about the and regret that bad things happened, but you're not responsible. Feeling guilt is just saddling yourself with a lot of baggage you'd seriously be better off without.

Live in a way that YOU think is right because YOU decide to, but not to make up for someone else's mistakes.

...what about how they treated black people during their life time. Did they not contribute to the racial tension that now exists?

Yes, but that was them. They were the product of their time and place, just as you are of yours. You don't have to try to make amends for them.

You can't, anyway. The past is over and done with. You can only act in the present and hope to change the future.

Islam is not violent by design.

Yeah, and "Christianity" is the Religion of Love.

And yet it has probably spawned more hatred and grief than any other religion in history. Don't buy into the myth of either.

Those who deny the past (specifically that Western actions in the Middle East have had nothing to do with the increase in fundamentalist terrorist groups) are either deluding themselves or idiots.

But that still does not mean that we are responsible for what our ancestors or countrymen did in the past or that we are guilty on account of their misdeeds. That's just the same old Ancient Middle East patriarchal religious bullshit (O woe! Sins of the fathers visited upon the children! Bring out the scapegoats!) in a different guise. Why go along with it?

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 09:58
by orald
Wow there, Chig! For a Magical Jewish Saint you seem quite bitter about these "Ancient Middle East" religions. :P

Personally I'm ashamed of my ancestors for "domesticating" animals, i.e locking them up and enslaving them for their own greedy, capitalistic needs. :cry:
You know it all really went downhill from there.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 10:07
by SandRider
chanilover wrote:
SandRider wrote:I'll take issue with your "none of my ancestors were slave-holders" comment, Freak.

If your family is from the South, prior to The War, and not immigrants from after,
the chances of slave-holding is extremely high. Southern slavery did not just take
place in huge numbers on big Tara-like plantations. (There were actually very few
large plantations under one control as is currently believed or depicted in movies)

Most cotton production was done on small to medium family farms, brothers and
uncles and cousins working adjacent lands and often pooling their small slave force.
The true face of slavery in the South was not one big Master with hundreds of slaves,
but hundreds of ordinary citizens with one to three slaves each.

I take issue with your statement because I hear it all the time.
"I don't owe them nothin' - my people were too poor to own slaves".
Unless you can prove to me thru genealogical research that this is true, the numbers
are against that statement. People have forgotten or were not taught just how rich
and prosperous the South in general was before the War. We didn't turn into poor
white bare-footed trash until after the War.


Even if Freak's ancestors were rich enough to own slaves, that doesn't mean Freak bears any responsibility for what happened in the past.


didn't say that he did, luv. Just taking issue with an over-used cliche in the South ....

I think "responsibility" is a very personal thing. If Freak feels no responsibility towards blacks,
that's fine with me. I see things differently, because of my heritage.

My people were slave holders and Confedate Veterans. They were full-fledged
Klansmen and Segregationists. The social and political situation of blacks
in the South are a direct result of the actions taken by members of
my family, some of whom I knew well, like my grandfather.

While I may not have a "personal responsibility" for those actions, or
owe anybody "reparations", I do think I have a responsibility
to treat the History with respect and truth, and work to make the
situation better for everyone in the South.

I find myself in the middle all the time. I certainly understand a black man's
anger and frustration at the legacy of institutional racism, and also
understand a white man's frustration at being "blamed" for things he
may not have agreed with or had any part of.

But I consider those personal feelings bullshit. Face the truth of History
squarely and honestly, and move on to a better future ....

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 10:13
by SwordMaster
SandChigger wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:We all have our own take on things, in how we decide to deal with issues like this one. And believe me I do not only feel guilt on the race issues of the past, but I also feel guilt about my ancestor's violent crusades through the Middle East and Europe.

I'm sorry, but going that far back? That is really just silly.

You can feel bad about the and regret that bad things happened, but you're not responsible. Feeling guilt is just saddling yourself with a lot of baggage you'd seriously be better off without.

Live in a way that YOU think is right because YOU decide to, but not to make up for someone else's mistakes.

...what about how they treated black people during their life time. Did they not contribute to the racial tension that now exists?

Yes, but that was them. They were the product of their time and place, just as you are of yours. You don't have to try to make amends for them.

You can't, anyway. The past is over and done with. You can only act in the present and hope to change the future.

Islam is not violent by design.

Yeah, and "Christianity" is the Religion of Love.

And yet it has probably spawned more hatred and grief than any other religion in history. Don't buy into the myth of either.

Those who deny the past (specifically that Western actions in the Middle East have had nothing to do with the increase in fundamentalist terrorist groups) are either deluding themselves or idiots.

But that still does not mean that we are responsible for what our ancestors or countrymen did in the past or that we are guilty on account of their misdeeds. That's just the same old Ancient Middle East patriarchal religious bullshit (O woe! Sins of the fathers visited upon the children! Bring out the scapegoats!) in a different guise. Why go along with it?


I’m not sure you guys understand me fully, it’s my mistake for not explaining myself well enough. I do not promote or go along with the idea of sins of our father’s etc sort of thing. But if history is our best hope to not make the mistakes of the past, and then why not use it, to motivate us towards more harmony and unity?

Hey guys, its not like I stay awake at night crying about the fact my great-grandfather and his men could have won WWI if the Germans did not give up. And by win, I mean kill a lot more people then he already did. Or that we nearly wiped out an entire civilization when we conquered the Americas both North and South. But that is always in the back of my mind, to some extent in everything I do. It’s my own morality, why not use those past events to better understand the mistakes made, and thus, never repeat them. I’m not asking everyone to feel guilt about the horror of our history, only to use it as a guide to make sure we live a more enlightened life... it works both ways, I was raised to hate all Russian people because of their occupation of Hungary and having family members who died fighting for Hungarian freedom, but I try my best to mitigate any residual hatred, some of it justified by those who went through this struggle, but much of it passed down through generations that were born in Canada... so I also recognize the mistakes of those in my family who have never met a Russian person but hate them because of what happened TO our ancestors, again, not the mistakes of any real life connection but that of the past. Make any more sense now? I use it as an example of "where we went wrong" Of course I support my past relatives who fought bravely vs. the Soviet occupation, but I do not support the future generations of hate that came after...

Hope I am being clearer now....

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 10:25
by SandRider
Also, and I'm sure Freak will disagree with this, but I don't seeing anything wrong
with a person, of whatever heritage, playing the cards dealt to his personal advantage.

My example - about two years ago, I was the shop steward on a project.
As the project neared completion, the lay-offs began, a handful a week for
awhile, thinning down the workforce.

So there was a young black kid working for me that I thought the world of.
Smart, motivated, talented, with a great future in the Electrician's Union and
a promising career ahead.

The work force was mostly redneck white guys and "mexicans", and a handful of blacks.
Three of the black guys were laid-off in one week. The next
week, I saw the kid's name on the next list. I advised him to have a talk
with the site superintendent about the wisdom of laying-off all the colored folk
in rapid sucession.

I had a talk with the man myself. Now, he was not a racist in any sense of the word,
and was looking at merit-based criteria for the lay-offs.

I told him I really didn't give a fuck about that, if the kid was laid off, I'd file a report
back to the hall anyway.

So the kid kept the job for a few more weeks, until the project was over, then went
on to the next one, and is still
working for the company, doing very well.

Fair ? Probably not. Do I give a damn ? No.
I cared about keeping that kid on the job.... by any means necessary.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 10:25
by Schu
So basically, those that don't know the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat it :P

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 10:28
by SwordMaster
Schu wrote:So basically, those that don't know the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat it :P


In some cases yes, that is what might happen. We need to use knowledge to make good choices.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 10:53
by chanilover
SandChigger wrote:Gayers? Gay is a verb, too, now? ;)


Yes. Je gaye, tu gayes, il gaye. You know the rest.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 10:56
by chanilover
SwordMaster wrote:
chanilover wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the problem in the US (especially the South) is that for the most part, white people are not racist, yet black people, who have never been slaves, have been born in this country with MORE RIGHTS than white people, keep rubbing out noses in what happened 400 years ago.

Freeman is right. If they stopped playing the race card at every possible turn, it might go a long way towards healing.

But therein lies another problem. Black people don't seem to want to be equal. I think they like it the way it is. They get special treatment, why would they want that to stop? They WANT to be different. If they didn't, they wouldn't call themselves "african-americans", but just Americans. Why give up thier trump card?

I'm proud of my heritage (to the disdain of black people) but I don't call myself european-american.

Now, if I found myself in Africa, I would do my best to fit in, but that doesn't mean I have to forget my heritage.


You make some good points although I have difficulty co-signing to this, I am one who feels that to some extent, we do have to make up for the mistakes of our ancesters... how we do that is another matter all together!?!


I don't agree with that. How can a group be held responsible for the actions of its ancestors? And if they're not being held responsible for the actions of their ancestors, then they have no responsibility to make up for the mistakes of those ancestors.

Ken Livingstone, former mayor of London, issued an apology in 1997 for London's role in the transatlantic slave trade. On the whole I thought he was a decent enough mayor, he certainly had London's best interests at heart, but this apology left me and a lot of other people cold. He didn't ask Londoners whether he could apologise on our behalf. No one knew who he was apologising to - a load of long-dead people, it seems. And no one knew who he was apologising on behalf of. Long-dead Londoners? Today's Londoners? A high proportion of our ancestors weren't in London at the time of the slave trade - mine were in Ireland and the Philippines. Does that make me exempt for the need to apologise? In that case, am I less of a Londoner than a white Londoner whose ancestors were in London at the time of the trade? The idea of a country as ethnically diverse as the UK having to apologise for the sins of its WHITE ancestors is divisive. Would black Londoners have to apologise to themselves for the slave trade?


We all have our own take on things, in how we decide to deal with issues like this one. And believe me I do not only feel guilt on the race issues of the past, but I also feel guilt about my ancestor's violent crusades through the Middle East and Europe.

I don’t mean that we must apologize, that is a really weak way to make amends. However by living a more inclusive and accepting life and not repeating similar mistakes. I do not think language can possibly suffice for what only a life of action towards racial harmony and reconciliation can begin to make progress towards. I was only stating that part of my motivation (not all) stems from knowing the mistakes made by my people in the past.

Now we look at this example of slaves and you want to say I never owned a slave, my parents did not, and my grandparents did not. Well that is fine, but what about how they treated black people during their life time. Did they not contribute to the racial tension that now exists?

No, my dad's a cracka my mum's Filipina, so they're probably not contributing to racial tension. Maybe amongst racists they do, but who cares what they think?

Let’s look at how we have treated the Islamic people, over the past 40 years. If we really want to put an end to terrorists who want to kill us, can we not also look at what we have done to cause this? I am not supporting their violence, I am simply pointing out that they did not start to hate us for no reason. Islam is not violent by design.



Supposedly not. But you can't blame the West for the execution of gayers in Iran. That's another story, though.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 11:02
by chanilover
SandRider wrote:
chanilover wrote:
SandRider wrote:I'll take issue with your "none of my ancestors were slave-holders" comment, Freak.

If your family is from the South, prior to The War, and not immigrants from after,
the chances of slave-holding is extremely high. Southern slavery did not just take
place in huge numbers on big Tara-like plantations. (There were actually very few
large plantations under one control as is currently believed or depicted in movies)

Most cotton production was done on small to medium family farms, brothers and
uncles and cousins working adjacent lands and often pooling their small slave force.
The true face of slavery in the South was not one big Master with hundreds of slaves,
but hundreds of ordinary citizens with one to three slaves each.

I take issue with your statement because I hear it all the time.
"I don't owe them nothin' - my people were too poor to own slaves".
Unless you can prove to me thru genealogical research that this is true, the numbers
are against that statement. People have forgotten or were not taught just how rich
and prosperous the South in general was before the War. We didn't turn into poor
white bare-footed trash until after the War.


Even if Freak's ancestors were rich enough to own slaves, that doesn't mean Freak bears any responsibility for what happened in the past.


didn't say that he did, luv. Just taking issue with an over-used cliche in the South ....

I think "responsibility" is a very personal thing. If Freak feels no responsibility towards blacks,
that's fine with me. I see things differently, because of my heritage.

My people were slave holders and Confedate Veterans. They were full-fledged
Klansmen and Segregationists. The social and political situation of blacks
in the South are a direct result of the actions taken by members of
my family, some of whom I knew well, like my grandfather.

While I may not have a "personal responsibility" for those actions, or
owe anybody "reparations", I do think I have a responsibility
to treat the History with respect and truth, and work to make the
situation better for everyone in the South.

I find myself in the middle all the time. I certainly understand a black man's
anger and frustration at the legacy of institutional racism, and also
understand a white man's frustration at being "blamed" for things he
may not have agreed with or had any part of.

But I consider those personal feelings bullshit. Face the truth of History
squarely and honestly, and move on to a better future ....


What about those of us who are not quite white and not at all black who constantly see race relations being hijacked in terms of whites weeping over how awful they were to blacks in the past? This is going to sound patronising but I'll say it anyway. Racism is not just about blacks suffering at the hands of whites, so I'm struggling to see why the history of slavery keeps being raised as being a central issue to racism, because it isn't.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 11:24
by orald
chanilover wrote:No, my dad's a cracka my mum's Filipina, so they're probably not contributing to racial tension. Maybe amongst racists they do, but who cares what they think?

Didn't you write this same line somehwre else before?

I'm getting way too many deja-vu's recently. :?

I'll be off to bed, get some shut-eye before going to work...got some more deja-vu's there lately as well. I hate them.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 11:25
by Schu
SwordMaster wrote:
Schu wrote:So basically, those that don't know the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat it :P


In some cases yes, that is what might happen. We need to use knowledge to make good choices.


I wasn't actually asking for clarification. I was just quoting. Not sure where from, but it may be Frank :P though if it is, it's probably more something he took from a common saying.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 11:29
by SwordMaster
Schu wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Schu wrote:So basically, those that don't know the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat it :P


In some cases yes, that is what might happen. We need to use knowledge to make good choices.


I wasn't actually asking for clarification. I was just quoting. Not sure where from, but it may be Frank :P though if it is, it's probably more something he took from a common saying.


Yah I just wanted to say, your summary 'quote' was really good and could have saved me a lot of typing.

p.s. I added you to msn

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 11:37
by SandChigger
:?

Wouldn't the 'y' be written as 'i'?

:P

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 13:15
by GamePlayer
chanilover wrote:There should be no such thing as racial shame, and people who feel they should be ashamed because they happen to have the same skin colour as centuries-dead slave owners are prolonging division, not helping to bring at end to racial tension.


Hear, hear! I applaud your point.
And would not those that say white people should be ashamed acting as racists themselves? My ancestors never owned slaves and immigrated to North America to escape starvation. Even setting aside the fact that people can't be blamed for the actions of their ancestors, if someone tried to shame me for slavery because I was white, that would be racist. And with our nations ever more diverse, white/black/yellow/green (hulk need love too!), we cannot have guilt improperly thrust upon those who had nothing to do with the slave trade. Ironic indeed, since "technically" no one alive had anything to do with the slave trade either. But I get your point.

SwordMaster wrote:I’m not sure you guys understand me fully, it’s my mistake for not explaining myself well enough. I do not promote or go along with the idea of sins of our father’s etc sort of thing. But if history is our best hope to not make the mistakes of the past, and then why not use it, to motivate us towards more harmony and unity?

Hey guys, its not like I stay awake at night crying about the fact my great-grandfather and his men could have won WWI if the Germans did not give up. And by win, I mean kill a lot more people then he already did. Or that we nearly wiped out an entire civilization when we conquered the Americas both North and South. But that is always in the back of my mind, to some extent in everything I do. It’s my own morality, why not use those past events to better understand the mistakes made, and thus, never repeat them. I’m not asking everyone to feel guilt about the horror of our history, only to use it as a guide to make sure we live a more enlightened life... it works both ways, I was raised to hate all Russian people because of their occupation of Hungary and having family members who died fighting for Hungarian freedom, but I try my best to mitigate any residual hatred, some of it justified by those who went through this struggle, but much of it passed down through generations that were born in Canada... so I also recognize the mistakes of those in my family who have never met a Russian person but hate them because of what happened TO our ancestors, again, not the mistakes of any real life connection but that of the past. Make any more sense now? I use it as an example of "where we went wrong" Of course I support my past relatives who fought bravely vs. the Soviet occupation, but I do not support the future generations of hate that came after...

Hope I am being clearer now....


But you're not bound by the fate of your ancestors. Oppressor or oppressed, people now live in a different world and have to get over the past, not stay chained to it. All that matters is what we do NOW.

You seem to labouring under the idea that you MUST FEEL GUILT as the only way to "encourage" yourself to make positive change. That's preposterous. Are you catholic? :)
Seriously, why not just promote positive change because you believe in the rightness of that positive change? That's all that's required. You can be much more valuable to the well-being of your fellow man if you stand up to emotional blackmail. If you vote for positive change. If you believe in the rightness of our democracy. That's all anyone can ask of you and all they are allowed to ask. Trust me, there's enough to feel guilty about in this life without carrying guilt for the dead.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 13:23
by chanilover
orald wrote:
chanilover wrote:No, my dad's a cracka my mum's Filipina, so they're probably not contributing to racial tension. Maybe amongst racists they do, but who cares what they think?

Didn't you write this same line somehwre else before?

I'm getting way too many deja-vu's recently. :?

I'll be off to bed, get some shut-eye before going to work...got some more deja-vu's there lately as well. I hate them.


I don't think so, maybe I did, I can't remember, or maybe you're prescient. I do remember saying you could pass for a cracka in your latest pics.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 13:25
by chanilover
Schu wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Schu wrote:So basically, those that don't know the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat it :P


In some cases yes, that is what might happen. We need to use knowledge to make good choices.


I wasn't actually asking for clarification. I was just quoting. Not sure where from, but it may be Frank :P though if it is, it's probably more something he took from a common saying.


I think it was Santayana. I may have his name wrong.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 14:26
by SwordMaster
GamePlayer wrote:
chanilover wrote:There should be no such thing as racial shame, and people who feel they should be ashamed because they happen to have the same skin colour as centuries-dead slave owners are prolonging division, not helping to bring at end to racial tension.


Hear, hear! I applaud your point.
And would not those that say white people should be ashamed acting as racists themselves? My ancestors never owned slaves and immigrated to North America to escape starvation. Even setting aside the fact that people can't be blamed for the actions of their ancestors, if someone tried to shame me for slavery because I was white, that would be racist. And with our nations ever more diverse, white/black/yellow/green (hulk need love too!), we cannot have guilt improperly thrust upon those who had nothing to do with the slave trade. Ironic indeed, since "technically" no one alive had anything to do with the slave trade either. But I get your point.

SwordMaster wrote:I’m not sure you guys understand me fully, it’s my mistake for not explaining myself well enough. I do not promote or go along with the idea of sins of our father’s etc sort of thing. But if history is our best hope to not make the mistakes of the past, and then why not use it, to motivate us towards more harmony and unity?

Hey guys, its not like I stay awake at night crying about the fact my great-grandfather and his men could have won WWI if the Germans did not give up. And by win, I mean kill a lot more people then he already did. Or that we nearly wiped out an entire civilization when we conquered the Americas both North and South. But that is always in the back of my mind, to some extent in everything I do. It’s my own morality, why not use those past events to better understand the mistakes made, and thus, never repeat them. I’m not asking everyone to feel guilt about the horror of our history, only to use it as a guide to make sure we live a more enlightened life... it works both ways, I was raised to hate all Russian people because of their occupation of Hungary and having family members who died fighting for Hungarian freedom, but I try my best to mitigate any residual hatred, some of it justified by those who went through this struggle, but much of it passed down through generations that were born in Canada... so I also recognize the mistakes of those in my family who have never met a Russian person but hate them because of what happened TO our ancestors, again, not the mistakes of any real life connection but that of the past. Make any more sense now? I use it as an example of "where we went wrong" Of course I support my past relatives who fought bravely vs. the Soviet occupation, but I do not support the future generations of hate that came after...

Hope I am being clearer now....


But you're not bound by the fate of your ancestors. Oppressor or oppressed, people now live in a different world and have to get over the past, not stay chained to it. All that matters is what we do NOW.

You seem to labouring under the idea that you MUST FEEL GUILT as the only way to "encourage" yourself to make positive change. That's preposterous. Are you catholic? :)
Seriously, why not just promote positive change because you believe in the rightness of that positive change? That's all that's required. You can be much more valuable to the well-being of your fellow man if you stand up to emotional blackmail. If you vote for positive change. If you believe in the rightness of our democracy. That's all anyone can ask of you and all they are allowed to ask. Trust me, there's enough to feel guilty about in this life without carrying guilt for the dead.


GamePlayer your cognitive ability is again on display, I was indeed raised catholic and you have probably found a source for much of my difficulty doing what you suggest. I do find it helpful to use it as motivation, not that I need motivation. But lets face it, racism is easy. Fighting it is difficult. So I use it as the extra push factor, in the deep shadows of my mind.

I should be more positive but the pitfalls of relating one bad example to the whole, are indeed difficult to overcome.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 16:13
by A Thing of Eternity
chanilover wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SandRider wrote:I'll take issue with your "none of my ancestors were slave-holders" comment, Freak.

If your family is from the South, prior to The War, and not immigrants from after,
the chances of slave-holding is extremely high. Southern slavery did not just take
place in huge numbers on big Tara-like plantations. (There were actually very few
large plantations under one control as is currently believed or depicted in movies)

Most cotton production was done on small to medium family farms, brothers and
uncles and cousins working adjacent lands and often pooling their small slave force.
The true face of slavery in the South was not one big Master with hundreds of slaves,
but hundreds of ordinary citizens with one to three slaves each.

I take issue with your statement because I hear it all the time.
"I don't owe them nothin' - my people were too poor to own slaves".
Unless you can prove to me thru genealogical research that this is true, the numbers
are against that statement. People have forgotten or were not taught just how rich
and prosperous the South in general was before the War. We didn't turn into poor
white bare-footed trash until after the War.


I'd have to say that it's kind of a moot point IMO, unless FZ ever owned his own slave then I don't think he has to feel personally guilty about slavery, other than maybe a broad sense of racial (by race I mean human here) guilt/shame, such as feeling a bit guilt to belong to the same race that did that kind of garbage. (Just like one might feel somewhat guilty/shamed for all kinds of shitty things humans have done in the past).


Absolutely not. There should be no such thing as racial shame, and people who feel they should be ashamed because they happen to have the same skin colour as centuries-dead slave owners are prolonging division, not helping to bring at end to racial tension.


CL - you missed the part I just underlined in my original post. Race as in human, not race as in white or whatever. A part of me is ashamed of all the terrible things the human race has ever done, nothing to do with which of those people I'm most closly related too.

Posted: 10 Mar 2009 20:17
by Ampoliros
chanilover wrote:
Schu wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:my bigotry admission is absofuckinglutly hating the 'gay accent' and haughty attitude/culture that is adopted by some homosexuals. That should be criminal.


I absolutely agree. I hate camp accents and mannerisms and have no idea why that would turn anyone on. But it's just another of the many things that irritate me. I usually figure that people that adopt camp mannerisms like that are probably making too big a show of their sexuality deliberately, and are posturing just a little. Some people seem to just grow up with them though, so who knows.


Camp people are appalling. It's the biggest turn off, but some gayers like to wear their gayness as some sort of badge of honour. It's like they want to be known as the gay guy, rather than be known as a guy who happens to be gay.


I have to agree. It comes off exactly the same way as dressing as a goth, or acting like a jock. Basically, they act that way to 'have a crowd identity'. I've had a gay roommate and he was insulted at my (admittedly ill-advised and juvenile) comment that he seemed like "a normal guy"