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    Vietnam

    Postby SandRider » 04 Mar 2009 19:50

    y'all start here :

    http://sirnosir.com/home_reference_library1.html





    lemme know when you're ready .....
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    Postby SandRider » 04 Mar 2009 19:57

    and before one of you Start It :

    http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215



    THE VETERAN
    Vietnam Veterans Against the War

    Debunking A Myth
    By John Zutz (Reviewer)



    The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam, by Jerry Lembcke (New York University Press, 1998)

    Many Vietnam veterans repeat a common litany: anti-war protesters spit upon them. This book attempts to debunk what Lembcke concludes has become a modern urban myth.

    How does one attempt to prove a negative - that something didn't happen? This author does it by examining the positive side and failing to find any conclusive proof that it occurred. Along the way he finds many indications that it is indeed a myth.

    His research examined newspapers from New York and San Francisco, as well as police reports detailing the interaction between protesters and veterans. No spitting incidents were reported, and the observers noticed that over time the veterans assumed leadership positions among the protesters. Lembcke did find newspaper reports of spitting during demonstrations in the late 1960s, but they referred to hawks spitting on anti-war protesters.

    Reinforcing his myth hypothesis, Lembcke cites a Harris poll reported to Congress in 1972 that indicates 93% of returning veterans found their homecoming friendly, while only 3% found it unfriendly. The poll also reported that over 75% of returning vets were opposed to the war.

    The first documented reports of being spit upon don't begin to appear until the early 1980s. According to the author, who is currently an associate professor of sociology, the time delay is a strong indication that the story is a myth. So where did the myth come from?

    First, remember that we lost the war. There are historical examples of mistreatment myths in which the abusers are said to be traitors to the national cause. In post-WWI Germany, the Fascists exploited similar rumors to arouse popular anger toward Jews, homosexuals, and women. After France's defeat in Indochina, the contrast and conflict of the male warrior image with the more feminine factors of society were blamed for the defeat.

    Second, right after the Vietnam War, the U.S. economy went into the tank. The working-class boys and girls who had served were hit the hardest by the lack of jobs combined with inflation. When they lost their jobs they began to doubt their worth.

    Perhaps most important in producing the myth were political machinations. The image of the Vietnam vet in the early 1970s was strongly anti-war. There is no place in the American memory for the factually accurate image of vets throwing their medals back at Congress. This image had to be changed if the United States ever wanted to go to war again.

    The image began changing when Nixon lost popular support for the war. He created the notion that society should support the war because the troops were there: we needed to keep fighting to bring the POWs home. The anti-war veteran image was changed further when the Nixon administration alluded that anti-war vets were effeminate and mentally suspect. This attitude was bolstered by popular film images of Post-Vietnam Syndrome (later Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD).

    The Bush administration used the idea that Vietnam vets had met with malevolence to rally support for the Gulf War, arguing that opposition to the war was tantamount to disregard for the troops' well-being. By the time the bombing began, the troops' presence in the Gulf became the reason for the fighting.

    Though no definitive proof can be produced to absolve activists, or to confirm their innocence, one can examine existing records and determine that, with the lack of positive proof and in the face of other events, it is unlikely any spitting occurred.

    The author, who served in Vietnam and joined VVAW on his return, comments that on announcing that he was exposing the myth he was met by two reactions, "Myth, hell, it happened," or "It's about time." Personally, I'm glad he did.


    John Zutz is a member of the Milwaukee chapter and a former VVAW regional coordinator.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2009 20:02

    My dad was a door gunner in Viet Nam. He doesn't talk about any of it much.
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    Postby SandRider » 04 Mar 2009 20:09

    ain't nothing to tell about what happened over there.

    what was important was what happened over here.

    and how the fuck we got these kids stomping behind the flag straight to hell again ....
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    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2009 20:16

    I don't think the public sees the individual soldier as the bad guy anymore. We know the soldiers don't pick and choose where they want to fight, the politicians do. We still have the occassion nuts protesting at a soldier funeral, who I think should be visciously beaten, but I think the anger is no longer directed at the army itself.

    Another big difference is that we now have an all volunteer army. The guys in VN mostly didn't even want to be in the military.
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    Postby SandRider » 04 Mar 2009 20:25

    Freak wrote:I don't think the public sees the individual soldier as the bad guy anymore.


    The public never did.
    The whole notion of the "shunned returning Vet" was a government & media myth.
    You believe it because of a three and half minute speech at the ass-end of the first Rambo movie.

    About half the Vets came home, thought they had just done their jobs and trusted that their government
    had known what it was doing, that the fight in Vietnam was a part of the fight against the Soviets. They
    got regular jobs and blended into the society. (This is probably your dad)

    The other half thought the whole thing, from top to bottom, was a big crock of shit.
    They came home and talked about it. They helped to inform and change the public's opinion of the war.

    Then a few years later, Ronald Reagan somehow brainwashed everybody and it was 1950 again.


    (and yeah, I'm at the RV park on the beach and drinking ......)
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    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2009 20:31

    Ronald Reagan will be on our money one day... if we still have any when Obama is done.
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    Postby SandRider » 04 Mar 2009 20:39

    you do that kinda shit just to see if it'll get my blood pressure up, doncha ?

    you really want to see me stroke out .....

    trying to type with one withered, paralyzed hand,
    drooping left eye, smelling of piss and whiskey,
    ropes of drool from my lips to the keyboard,

    knowing full well my mind would still be (mostly) intact,
    held hostage in a disobediant body, unable to correct
    your horrid misunderstandings....


    bah.
    I'll not give you the pleasure, sir.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2009 20:40

    :lol:
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    Postby GamePlayer » 04 Mar 2009 22:03

    Stimulus package! Stimulus package!
    I hate that phrase. No offense, but it sounds like the name of a bar I don't want to be anywhere near on a Friday night.
    "They can chew you up, but they gotta spit you out."
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    Postby Omphalos » 04 Mar 2009 22:09

    I saw a porno called Stimulus Package is already out.
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    Postby Eyes High » 04 Mar 2009 23:53

    There were some interesting audio links on that page.

    Vietnam was a tough subject then and still is to some degrees and Irag is getting more and more like nam everyday.

    My prayers go out to all our soldiers, then and now.
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    Nothing, but that which is in our own imaginations.
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    Postby GamePlayer » 05 Mar 2009 00:40

    Omphalos wrote:I saw a porno called Stimulus Package is already out.


    Oh, could have seen that one coming like the next Monday.
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    Postby Robspierre » 05 Mar 2009 01:30

    Freakzilla wrote:My dad was a door gunner in Viet Nam. He doesn't talk about any of it much.


    The guy I ran the restaurant for is a Vietnam vet, the only thing he would talk about was the day he arrived in Vietnam. He was there in '70 or '71.

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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Mar 2009 10:12

    I like this site. The illustrations are direct and honest, and I gotta say, this is the first time I've seen such anti-war art from that period in particular. I shall be giving this site a closer look.

    What I've never understood though, is the whole "support our troops" notion. This cute catchphrase can be seen on gold ribbons and bumper stickers everywhere you go, but I'll bet that 90% of the people sporting them have no clue what the fuck they're talking about. For some reason, supporting our troops seems to go hand-in-hand with supporting the war effort in general, which to me is a giant contradiction. The longer you're at war, the more troops will die, so in what way do these people really support these troops? What they're unwittingly supporting is the politicians and the military-industrial complex, which has grown to monstrous levels, just as Ike warned us about. If people really wanted to "support our troops" they'd want to bring them home.
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    Postby SandRider » 05 Mar 2009 10:45

    Drunken Idaho wrote:and I gotta say, this is the first time I've seen such anti-war art from that period in particular.


    Thank you. This was my point.
    History was re-written before my eyes.
    This artwork, the GI Movement, the Winter Soldier Conference, the
    underground GI newspapers, were all common images up until the
    end of the war. Then the spin doctors took control of the images,
    the ideas, the history.

    Myths and lies were spread. A nation's attitutude was re-built
    from the ground up. And I, like most people involved, just
    shrugged our shoulders and went to work, families, being regular
    people again.

    To the point that when "Platoon" won best picture in 1986, it was
    relentlessly attacked by pro-military conservatives.

    The "Support Our Troops" slogan was Lee Atwater. He formulated the
    tactic of conjuring up all the the Vietnam Veteran myths to bolster support
    for the First Gulf War.

    I really shouldn't have started this.
    I'm angry again.
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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Mar 2009 11:04

    It makes you wonder about all previous wars. What kind of anti-war movements fell into obscurity after WW1&2? Or the Boer War, that one was was pretty unnecessary. But back then, joining the military was thought of as signing up for adventure. Oh what jolly fun, shooting all the blackies! :roll: Think of how the image of the soldier changed since way back then. In 100 years it went from adventure and intrique, to truly defending one's country, to the Rambo cliche, and now to "support our brave, beautiful troops, God bless 'em" for no real reason.

    Hmm, Lee Atwater eh? It didn't even occur to me that the slogan could be traced to an actual creator. I just figured there was a monkey somewhere coming up with slogans for multi-coloured ribbons.

    And if you're angry, you should direct it into the right place. IE: Activism.
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    Postby SandRider » 05 Mar 2009 11:11

    Have you ever heard of the "Bonus Army" ?


    During WWI, the Congress passed a "Bonus Law" for troops
    overseas in Europe at the time to have a substantial "bonus"
    waiting for them upon their return.

    After the war, Congress never released this promised money.

    Tens of thousands of Veterans marched on Washington,
    the "Bonus Army", and set up a camp in a park. They protested
    and marched and met with government officials about the issue,
    and were there for several weeks, until the government got tired
    of them, and called in National Guard troops to clear the camp.

    Which they did, with violence. US Army Veterans were murdered
    in the nation's capitol by Federal Troops while trying to get the money
    their Congress had promised by law to them for their service to the
    country in foreign lands.

    God Bless America.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 11:22

    SandRider wrote:Have you ever heard of the "Bonus Army" ?


    During WWI, the Congress passed a "Bonus Law" for troops
    overseas in Europe at the time to have a substantial "bonus"
    waiting for them upon their return.

    After the war, Congress never released this promised money.

    Tens of thousands of Veterans marched on Washington,
    the "Bonus Army", and set up a camp in a park. They protested
    and marched and met with government officials about the issue,
    and were there for several weeks, until the government got tired
    of them, and called in National Guard troops to clear the camp.

    Which they did, with violence. US Army Veterans were murdered
    in the nation's capitol by Federal Troops while trying to get the money
    their Congress had promised by law to them for their service to the
    country in foreign lands.

    God Bless America.


    I believe it was young McArthur who went above and beyond his orders in burning the Bonus Army Camp to the ground.

    He did NOT have orders to do that from the President and it's amazing he wasn't courtmarshalled.

    Supporting the troops and supporting the war effort are two totally different things.

    You DO NOT need to convince soldiers that war is a bad idea, they know that, they are in it, they don't have a choice. They are folloing the orders of the politicians. Those are the people you need to convince.

    However, while you are fighting against the war, you can still support the troops.

    http://adoptaplatoon.org/new/

    Sending the soldiers a care package with candy, toilet paper, etc... does not mean you are in favor of the war, it means you appreciate the sacrafice our brave young fathers, brothers and sons have made to defend your way of life, regardless of how the politicians missuse that sacrafice.

    You can march on Washington and still support the troops.
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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Mar 2009 12:09

    Well, clearly Freak, you are one of the 10% who realize the difference, because it seems to me that there is a large majority of ribbon-wearers who are deeply confused on this. These are the same people who buy into the "if you're not with us, you're against us" philosophy, which is the most boneheaded dogma I've ever heard. Whenever war comes up around here, I always seem to end up saying that not everything is black and white. I think a lot of those blind George W. Bush supporters (especially in the early days of the Iraq war) have a lot of weird associations that tie into this, and these include those who think that losing or pulling out of the war might be bad for the morale of the troops, or other lame excuses. Yeah, let's keep killing Iraqi civilians so that our troops don't feel bad. Such bullshit.

    Another idiotic association this reminds me of, althought it's somewhat unrelated, is how Bush had managed to get so much of the Christian population to back him up blindly. I'm reminded of a scene from Slack Uprising, which is the free film Michael Moore released in September. He goes around to Universities, encouraging young people to vote and so on, and at one rally, some "Young Christian League" or whatever made up of about 20-25 students stands up and starts booing and chanting hateful things towards Moore. Now think about this. Moore is doing nothing un-Christian here, but because he is anti-Bush and anti-war, these idiots think he's anti-God. And it's all thanks to Bush claiming he's on a holy mission, etc.

    Oh don't worry, Moore had a comeback. He then says into the mic as they march out of the auditorium, "Hey, what would Jesus bomb?" :lol:

    But yeah, that bonus army situation is pretty shocking. It's really pathetic what lies politicians will put forth as a petty way to get the general masses to shut their mouths.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 12:41

    US Soldiers do not intentionally kill civilians and as a veteran I take it as a personal insult when you imply that.
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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Mar 2009 12:56

    The conditions of war imply civilian deaths, especially the way the US conducts it. 30,000 civilian deaths and rising. That's not saying that US soldiers committed all that murder directly, nor is it meant that they did any of it intentionally. But it doesn't change the fact that so many people died due to the conditions of war. There's no way Saddam was going to kill that many by himself. I meant that prolonging the war continues the conditions in which many people die every day. I did not mean that as long as soldiers are around, they're going to be killing civilians. It's a foolish thing to pretend like there won't be any collateral damage. So unless complete retardation is involved, by supporting the war, one also supports the death of civilians. Essentially, what I meant was "is our soldiers' morale reason enough to continue the conditions of war?"
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    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 13:03

    We do our best to AVOID civilian casualties. We can put a bomb into a window or air conditioning vent from 30,000 feet. Just 50 years ago we were carpet bombing entire cities to break the will of the civilians to fight.

    We could stop spending so much money on smart bombs and go back to that.

    Besides, those numbers are inflated and not all can be directly contributed to US Soldiers.

    The way you stated it, not killing civilians is bad for US morale and that's bullshit.
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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Mar 2009 13:32

    No no, I'm just stating a couple pros and cons of pulling out of the war in Iraq.

    Many argue as a con: American Soldiers will be let down, by being denied victory.

    I argue as a pro: People will stop dying in such immense numbers.




    Sorry if it offended you, I really didn't mean it that way. But again I stress that it's foolish to think that war by nature does not have inevitably bloody repercussions. Therefore, if your war is going nowhere, why keep the soldiers around?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 13:39

    It's a moot point because Obama has already given the Taliban a date they can come back (troop withdrawl).

    I know there are always innocent bystanders, but we try our best not to cause them.

    Unlike our enemies who target innocent civilians.

    But we should just give them a hug, right?
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