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    Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 20:05

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    SandRider wrote:I think I'm just gonna give up.

    I start a topic on Vietnam Veteran War Protesters
    and it still ends up being about Canadian politics ...


    Yah its still in the topic of war, but your right man, sorry for hijacking it again


    SwordMaster, I've been trying to ignore this for a while but I can't anymore, it's driving me nuts. Sorry. You're looking for the word you're (pun!), not your.

    EDIT: I'm no master of spelling myself though...


    oh i know thats just lazy i thoughth web allowed these sorts of typos... if i was going to really write something it would be well spelled.

    I had dyslecsia when i wus growing up

    i used to write about it in my dairy
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    Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 20:06

    DoONt MAkME PoOOST lTTtt ReallY likK I I typpoee StuuphZ! Okeyay?
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 20:10

    SwordMaster wrote:DoONt MAkME PoOOST lTTtt ReallY likK I I typpoee StuuphZ! Okeyay?
    :lol:
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    Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 20:12

    You're correct though.

    People will assume I am an idiot if I type lazy. I should make an effort, what did you think of the joke about my 'dairy?'
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    Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 20:14

    We did it again,

    Now Il post my thoughts on the actual OP.

    I have never understood the American fear of Communism. It really warps my mind. If someone could explain THAT to me, I would understand why that war even happend.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 20:34

    SwordMaster wrote:We did it again,

    Now Il post my thoughts on the actual OP.

    I have never understood the American fear of Communism. It really warps my mind. If someone could explain THAT to me, I would understand why that war even happend.


    Because they were told to by McCarthy? I have no idea, seems pretty irrational to me, especially when it's someone else's country (I sure wouldn't want it in my country though).

    I'm sure SandRider will come by and fill us in on this.
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    Postby SwordMaster » 06 Mar 2009 20:38

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:We did it again,

    Now Il post my thoughts on the actual OP.

    I have never understood the American fear of Communism. It really warps my mind. If someone could explain THAT to me, I would understand why that war even happend.


    Because they were told to by McCarthy? I have no idea, seems pretty irrational to me, especially when it's someone else's country (I sure wouldn't want it in my country though).

    I'm sure SandRider will come by and fill us in on this.


    I am also looking forward to FZ on the topic!
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Mar 2009 20:51

    SwordMaster wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:We did it again,

    Now Il post my thoughts on the actual OP.

    I have never understood the American fear of Communism. It really warps my mind. If someone could explain THAT to me, I would understand why that war even happend.


    Because they were told to by McCarthy? I have no idea, seems pretty irrational to me, especially when it's someone else's country (I sure wouldn't want it in my country though).

    I'm sure SandRider will come by and fill us in on this.


    I am also looking forward to FZ on the topic!


    I'm sure SR will tell how it all got started, and FZ will fill us in on the contemporary rational.
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    Postby Eyes High » 07 Mar 2009 00:07

    Sorry SandRider, but if you will allow me hijack this thread for just a moment: I would like to take this time to give my opinion, without stating about the validity of either one, that I have always thought it was wrong of Bush to group the war in Afghanistan with the war in Iraq. I believe the two are as separate as night from day. I believe by focusing on Iraq as much as the country and government have, that we have harmed our soldiers in Afghanistan. I believe we are fighting two separate wars at once which anyone should know is a bad idea. And if by some chance these wars are related, isn’t fighting a double front war just as much as a mistake? How can we win with our forces so spread so far and thin?

    Now as to the thought of Communism: My problem with that is when any government takes away the freedoms of: religion, speech, the press, peaceable assembly, and the right of the people to defend themselves then those who are able should be willing to assist those who ask for it. I’m not for sure if the people of Vietnam asked for help. I want to say those in the southern part did, but I admit I could be mistaken.

    Just like with so many other issues in our times, there are no clear cut solutions, and I’m sure history will be re-written many times without the truth ever being fully known.

    Thank you Sand Rider for beginning this topic and to everyone who has presented so many interesting points of views during all the hijacking of this thread.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Mar 2009 09:04

    Eyes High wrote:Sorry SandRider, but if you will allow me hijack this thread for just a moment: I would like to take this time to give my opinion, without stating about the validity of either one, that I have always thought it was wrong of Bush to group the war in Afghanistan with the war in Iraq. I believe the two are as separate as night from day. I believe by focusing on Iraq as much as the country and government have, that we have harmed our soldiers in Afghanistan. I believe we are fighting two separate wars at once which anyone should know is a bad idea. And if by some chance these wars are related, isn’t fighting a double front war just as much as a mistake? How can we win with our forces so spread so far and thin?


    Look at a map of Southwest Asia and see which country is between...

    http://encarta.msn.com/map_701516672/Middle_East.html
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    Postby Seraphan » 07 Mar 2009 11:05

    The old sandwich tactic, easy to put embargoes in effect, plus the obvious upper hand in military operations.

    I too find the old American fear of communism, odd.
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    Postby Eyes High » 07 Mar 2009 11:31

    Freakzilla wrote:...
    Look at a map of Southwest Asia and see which country is between...

    http://encarta.msn.com/map_701516672/Middle_East.html


    I see your point. But I still think of them as two seperate wars.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Mar 2009 01:27

    Eyes High wrote:Now as to the thought of Communism: My problem with that is when any government takes away the freedoms of: religion, speech, the press, peaceable assembly, and the right of the people to defend themselves then those who are able should be willing to assist those who ask for it. I’m not for sure if the people of Vietnam asked for help. I want to say those in the southern part did, but I admit I could be mistaken.


    I understand this, and that scares me too. To be fair though, those problems aren't really part of what Communism/Socialism is supposed to be, that's just the way it ended up being attempted. There could in theory be a totally socialist or communist society with all the freedoms you list above, and fully democratic. Democracy and socialism are apples and oranges, and one doesn't exclude the other. IMO.
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    Postby Eyes High » 08 Mar 2009 01:41

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Eyes High wrote:Now as to the thought of Communism: My problem with that is when any government takes away the freedoms of: religion, speech, the press, peaceable assembly, and the right of the people to defend themselves then those who are able should be willing to assist those who ask for it. I’m not for sure if the people of Vietnam asked for help. I want to say those in the southern part did, but I admit I could be mistaken.


    I understand this, and that scares me too. To be fair though, those problems aren't really part of what Communism/Socialism is supposed to be, that's just the way it ended up being attempted. There could in theory be a totally socialist or communist society with all the freedoms you list above, and fully democratic. Democracy and socialism are apples and oranges, and one doesn't exclude the other. IMO.

    (edited for emphasis.)


    And that dear friend IMO is the main problem. Theory rarely matches up with reality. The human factory is too unpredictable.

    I think democracy is the best government in the world but even that has been spoiled by human greed and prejudices. There are many good ideas out there and each one touches us in a different way. If only theories could match up with reality.

    Thank you for discussing your opinions and beliefs so well.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Mar 2009 01:47

    Eyes High wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Eyes High wrote:Now as to the thought of Communism: My problem with that is when any government takes away the freedoms of: religion, speech, the press, peaceable assembly, and the right of the people to defend themselves then those who are able should be willing to assist those who ask for it. I’m not for sure if the people of Vietnam asked for help. I want to say those in the southern part did, but I admit I could be mistaken.


    I understand this, and that scares me too. To be fair though, those problems aren't really part of what Communism/Socialism is supposed to be, that's just the way it ended up being attempted. There could in theory be a totally socialist or communist society with all the freedoms you list above, and fully democratic. Democracy and socialism are apples and oranges, and one doesn't exclude the other. IMO.

    (edited for emphasis.)


    And that dear friend IMO is the main problem. Theory rarely matches up with reality. The human factory is too unpredictable.

    I think democracy is the best government in the world but even that has been spoiled by human greed and prejudices. There are many good ideas out there and each one touches us in a different way. If only theories could match up with reality.

    Thank you for discussing your opinions and beliefs so well.


    Thank YOU for discussing yours. :D And I agree, humanity tends to crash and burn the execution of good ideas. I believe there are some democratic countries right now doing quite well though that are about as near socialist as the USA is near capitalist - like Sweden. So it can be done, but I doubt it is easy to do, and I am 100% sure that real pure socialism would fail no matter what the governing system in place. Humanity isn't up to the challenge.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Mar 2009 10:37

    The weak link in any system is going to be the humans involved. With democracy you get commitees and delays and corruption.

    Maybe one day we can all vote by text message, like American Idol. :wink:
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    Postby GamePlayer » 08 Mar 2009 20:05

    Freakzilla wrote:The weak link in any system is going to be the humans involved. With democracy you get commitees and delays and corruption.


    I disagree. The human ability to break through any system, no matter how pervasive, is a strength, not a weakness. The abuse of said system is an unfortunate byproduct, but struggling for what's possible has lead humanity to where it is now. It's not a dignified, moral, or fair way to progress, but it's what we got and it works.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Mar 2009 20:13

    Eyes High wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:...
    Look at a map of Southwest Asia and see which country is between...

    http://encarta.msn.com/map_701516672/Middle_East.html


    I see your point. But I still think of them as two seperate wars.


    You should, they are. Both, I think are also a potential staging point for a pincer style attack on Iran.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Mar 2009 21:32

    GamePlayer wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:The weak link in any system is going to be the humans involved. With democracy you get commitees and delays and corruption.


    I disagree. The human ability to break through any system, no matter how pervasive, is a strength, not a weakness. The abuse of said system is an unfortunate byproduct, but struggling for what's possible has lead humanity to where it is now. It's not a dignified, moral, or fair way to progress, but it's what we got and it works.


    I think it's both really, humans will be what causes something to work, and what causes it to stop working. The best of humanity accomplishes great things, the worst can destroy everything the best built up. And vice versa and so on.
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    Postby GamePlayer » 08 Mar 2009 23:35

    Well, we're still here. So by default, I think optimism wins out :)
    When we destroy ourselves, you'll get to say; "I told you so" :P
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Mar 2009 00:58

    GamePlayer wrote:Well, we're still here. So by default, I think optimism wins out :)
    When we destroy ourselves, you'll get to say; "I told you so" :P


    True enough! :shock:
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    Re:

    Postby distrans » 16 Jan 2013 03:04

    SandRider wrote:I think I'm just gonna give up.

    I start a topic on Vietnam Veteran War Protesters
    and it still ends up being about Canadian politics ...




    but they all take the pass on strip mining
    fucking hosers


    every actually read the title of the pentagon papers?

    "United States – Vietnam Relations, 1945–1967: A Study Prepared by the Department of Defense"


    got that?
    1945...

    the day japan conditionally surrendered,
    we diverted our war effort straight to propping up the french keeping the lid on theyre colonys revolting

    even churchill noted that japan could never have swept through southeast asia as liberators
    if the western powers who had colonized it hadnt been such rat fucking bastards in their administration
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    Re: Vietnam

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 16 Jan 2013 17:39

    On the topic on Communism in Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh was never a Communist when the conflict began. It was because of the unbelievably stupid arrogance of Charles de Gaulle that the conflict began at all, because he was wanted to reclaim all colonies that were taken from France by the Japanese. Minh pleaded for help from the U.S., but they didn't comply because they were more afraid of Vietnam falling into Communist hands (even though Ho Chi Minh wasn't one) than with the prospect of the Colonial French wrecking a country by trying to reclaim it. If the U.S. had helped Vietnam deal with the French, Vietnam wouldn't have fallen into Communist hands anyway. They hated the Chinese, and I don't think they liked the Russians either. As the result of the U.S. not helping Minh when he needed it, he must've been really screwed up mentally by the conflict overtime, which is why things got really nasty for North Vietnam and after. I need to read Bright Shining Lie to get a more thorough grasp of the war.
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    Re: Vietnam

    Postby distrans » 16 Jan 2013 18:47

    youd think we could have learned something

    the democratically elected government of afganistan asked the US to intervein in the late 70's
    the request fell on deaf ears

    then they asked the soviets who did offer aid
    thats right
    the ussr never invaded afganistan
    they were invited in
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