Religion! (or atheism/agnosticism/non-religion/whatever)

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SandChigger
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Postby SandChigger » 10 Mar 2009 16:24

GamePlayer wrote:In the McCarthy era, I would have been called "communist"
In the 60's, I would have been called the "establishment"
The conservatives call me a "liberal"
The liberals call me a "conservative"
The moderates call me "libertarian"
The military would call me "traitor"
The press would call me "stooge"
The founding fathers would call me "patriot"

I would call you ... A CANADIAN! :D

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Mar 2009 17:06

Eyes High wrote:Now with that said; I also hope that many of you have come to view me as a respectable person who is open minded and respectful of others' beliefs. And as a lady that has at least some measure of intelligence.

Like y'all have said; it is the extremists in any group who tarnishes that groups' perception by the rest of the world.

The so called christians who bomb abortion clinics and murder people, 'because god told them to do it' or protest at people’s funerals 'because god hates homosexuals' are foremost misunderstanding the true teachings of God in my opinion and are just as wrong as the those who, because they don't believe in a god or 'my God', do not think anyone should be able to practice their faith out in public (or even in private for some) and further believe that anyone who believes in such a deity is a complete idiot.

I do not believe religion is the danger. I believe it is the way some people interpret said religion is where the danger lies. The God I know is a God of love. To me it is a person relationship. A relationship that cannot be forced onto others. A relationship that each person must decide for him or herself if they want. To me it is that relationship not the religion that is so important.

Intolerance is wrong. However, lately I see coming from those extremists in the fields of anti-religion the same intolerant behavior that they accuse many religions (especially Christianity) of having.
Reminds me of the old saying: “The pot calling the kettle black.”


EDITED BY ME FOR LENGTH


Thanks for the thoughts Eyes High - let me start by saying that I certainly am not one of the people who thinks you or anyone else is an idiot for believing in a higher power! I have no huge problem with the belief in a creator and I do not believe it stems from lower intelligence, though I do believe that this belief is a negative thing for the human spirit (spirit as in morale, or sense of worth, morals, etc - not soul!), as well as being a vastly more complicated explanation for the universe than is necessary or correct.

I respect everyone's right to their religions, and I would (literally) fight for those rights if it came to an abusive agnostic or atheism regime. That said - I work towards the end of religion. This is one of the key aspects of my life, and has been since I was old enough to understand that some people believed in some very specific (and completely unverifiable) things about gods and the afterlife. I do believe that religion is the danger. Yes, it is people's interpretations that really make it dangerous, just like a weapon is only actively dangerous when a person decides to use it for harm, but that doesn't negate the fact that the religion, as with the weapon, is innately dangerous. There is nothing we can do about this danger other than to lessen it by diluting religions, or remove it entirely by ending religion.

I agree that those atheist extremists are somewhat the pot calling the kettle black, but I do no consider myself an extremist in this. I tell no one to stop practicing or believing. I have never in my life done this. I DO ask them to learn, and to think. I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone - I'm telling them to actually learn about their own beliefs. My main problem with religion right now is that it is propagated by deliberately leaving out information. For example:

I have yet to hear of mainstream preachers reminding their flocks that the oldest and most reliable book of the new testament was written down by someone who never met Jesus, dictated by Peter 50 years after Jesus’ death. Nor have I heard them point out that this Gospel - which was originally intended to be a complete account of Jesus and his teachings for future generations (not a chapter in a bigger book) does not mention the so called virgin birth, nor does it mention the resurrection, nor does it blatantly deify Jesus. Either Peter, who knew Jesus inside and out, didn't know about these things, or didn't think they were important enough to write down - which of those is more likely? Does this mean Christianity is wrong? No, I know Christians who know and accept this weakness in the scriptures - but it doesn't seem that the leaders of Christianity like their followers being told about these (and many many other) important issues, like the 2 completely different creation stories, or that the old testament was oral for hundred and hundreds of years and thus has certainly been changed and mistaken from it's original forms and messages. Very few Christians know anything about this, they think the Bible is the word of god.

My problem with religions is that they rely on what people don't know, not adding something to what they do know. I want an end to this kind of organized religion. Most Christians I know have so little knowledge of their own religion that I (and I know almost nothing of what there is to know) far outstrip their religious education. I want religious teachers to take responsibility for the weaknesses of their religions instead of sweeping them under the rug.

Having said that, I would be sad on many levels to see religion end. It has amazing beauty, and does have some positive results. I just want to see people accept that their own beliefs about specific attributes of God, or the afterlife, are in no way shape or form more valid than those of other religions. That would be a great first step. I want a Pluralist Christianity, and Islam (NOT going to happen...) and so forth. Many religions (and some Christians) are already either inclusivist or pluralist, there is no reason mainstream Christianity can't get with the program and start respecting the other 2/3rds of the world. :wink: (it looks like you've already made it this far with your own beliefs Eyes High, so please don't takke that as aimed at yourself).

I hope that doesn't make me one of the extremists.
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Postby DuneFishUK » 10 Mar 2009 18:50

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Thanks for the thoughts Eyes High - let me start by saying that I certainly am not one of the people who thinks you or anyone else is an idiot for believing in a higher power! I have no huge problem with the belief in a creator and I do not believe it stems from lower intelligence, though I do believe that this belief is a negative thing for the human spirit (spirit as in morale, or sense of worth, morals, etc - not soul!), as well as being a vastly more complicated explanation for the universe than is necessary or correct.


I do try not be fundamental but sometimes it ain't easy :P . The core concept of a creator is a huge big barrier. To accept it you have to stop looking for answers - quit reasoning and scratching your head over the big bang and blame it on the deity. It is a great get-out-of-jail-free card and I admit I don't loose much sleep over that sort of stuff - but giving up on finding out ain't something I'm in favour of. Once you question god's place as creator - the ball is dropped.

That aside - Eyes High does have the right end of the stick. Religion has a tremendous power (precisely the reason it's so dangerous) bit it can be used positively. Quakerism too has the right end of the stick. Rather than removing people from god via preachers, priests and rhetoric, it allows for a direct, very personal, communion with a peaceful god. Quaker meetings are brilliant. :)

As for the accuracy of the bible - The Gospel of Thomas is an interesting read. The books of the bible were selected from a greater body of work. It makes you wonder if those roman scholars appreciated the impact their choosing certain books over others would have...

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

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Postby SwordMaster » 10 Mar 2009 19:23

The thing with Dawkins is that when you speak to those who read him, it seems they focus so much on the idea that DuneFishUK just brought up.
Once you question god's place as creator - the ball is dropped.


That is true and when it is focused on it creates too much of a "US vs. THEM" sort of mentality.

And it then ruins many of the athiest arguments because it has the same effect as the worst type of faith. My god is real - Yours is not

Always leading to hate. If Dick Dawk could be a bit more open minded about it, I would enjoy his work more so.

But he is a very smart man, and could debate anyone.

I found this book to be a good read myself. In terms of understanding how the bible actually came to be "published"

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Postby moreh_yeladim » 10 Mar 2009 19:27

Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.
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Postby SwordMaster » 10 Mar 2009 19:34

moreh_yeladim wrote:Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.


hey thanks for your epic post dude! Isreal FTW!
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Postby DuneFishUK » 10 Mar 2009 19:39

SwordMaster wrote:Always leading to hate. If Dick Dawk could be a bit more open minded about it, I would enjoy his work more so


:P You can tell? Yeah - I read a bit of Dawkins not so long ago.

I do think the man is an arse - sometimes an utter arse, and I don't like his position of "Head Atheist" at all.

The problem is - I think his "enemies of reason" approach is pretty impossible to get past - I'm a modelmaker and at work every day I have to get small things near as dammit millimetre perfect. So the concept of approaching much greater life decisions (not just airy-fairy physics stuff - Let's get away from that for a moment) not armed with my proverbial vernier callipers sounds like madness. And yet millions of people everyday lay down their ideas with obviously bent rulers. (as it were)

Maybe I'd be more open to religion if Jesus had included more carpentry based parables :P

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Postby Eyes High » 11 Mar 2009 00:48

GamePlayer wrote:

"I believe in America" :)

Seriously, I believe in democracy. Or to be more specific, I believe in the dream that was democracy, since we no longer have it. Perhaps not even that. Perhaps just the promise of the next progressive form of government is what I truly believe in, by whatever name that is to be called. Perhaps I'm just born out of my time :)

All I know is what I am in the eyes of others and what I am in the eyes of myself.
Edited


There are so many good things to believe in and I’m glad our minds and hearts are capable of believing is so many different things at the same time. The purity of a good idea is something worth believing in and it can be disheartening when human corruption spoils that purity. I too believe in democracy, or at least a republic form of democracy. But it is that last line that I took from your post that really struck a cord with me.

People will see us how they want to and even for those of us who care how others view us, it is (or at least should be) more important how we view ourselves. If we cannot look at ourselves in the mirror with a clean conscience, then how can we continue to play a role for others?

Does it really matter what we claim to believe in, if we do not hold ourselves to the standards of that belief? I think too many people have fallen into the trap of not practicing what they preach.

Extremists hurt their causes more than help them.



A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts Eyes High - let me start by saying that I certainly am not one of the people who thinks you or anyone else is an idiot for believing in a higher power! I have no huge problem with the belief in a creator and I do not believe it stems from lower intelligence, though I do believe that this belief is a negative thing for the human spirit (spirit as in morale, or sense of worth, morals, etc - not soul!), as well as being a vastly more complicated explanation for the universe than is necessary or correct.


My main problem with religion right now is that it is propagated by deliberately leaving out information.


Most Christians I know have so little knowledge of their own religion that I (and I know almost nothing of what there is to know) far outstrip their religious education. I want religious teachers to take responsibility for the weaknesses of their religions instead of sweeping them under the rug.

Having said that, I would be sad on many levels to see religion end. It has amazing beauty, and does have some positive results. I just want to see people accept that their own beliefs about specific attributes of God, or the afterlife, are in no way shape or form more valid than those of other religions. That would be a great first step. I want a Pluralist Christianity, and Islam (NOT going to happen...) and so forth. Many religions (and some Christians) are already either inclusivist or pluralist, there is no reason mainstream Christianity can't get with the program and start respecting the other 2/3rds of the world. :wink: (it looks like you've already made it this far with your own beliefs Eyes High, so please don't takke that as aimed at yourself).

I hope that doesn't make me one of the extremists.

Edited:

You make many valid points. And thank you.

It can be surprising just how much a person does not know about his/her own religion. I know there is plenty that I am still learning. Some things I believe you accept on faith, but faith shouldn’t stop you from asking questions and seeking answers to those questions.

And no, I do not count you among the extremists. In fact I am hard pressed to think of anyone on this board (at least for now :wink: ) that I would count in that category. There are many who I feel are passionate about there beliefs and feelings and have no qualm about sharing said opinions. And I commend them for that.

And although some of y’all might intimidate me just a tad :shock: :D , I do believe that most of you have made me feel welcome on this board, and I thank each and every one of you for that.


DuneFishUK wrote:

I do try not be fundamental but sometimes it ain't easy :P . The core concept of a creator is a huge big barrier. To accept it you have to stop looking for answers - quit reasoning and scratching your head over the big bang and blame it on the deity. It is a great get-out-of-jail-free card and I admit I don't loose much sleep over that sort of stuff - but giving up on finding out ain't something I'm in favour of. Once you question god's place as creator - the ball is dropped.


As for the accuracy of the bible - The Gospel of Thomas is an interesting read. The books of the bible were selected from a greater body of work. It makes you wonder if those roman scholars appreciated the impact their choosing certain books over others would have...

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html


I'm a modelmaker and at work every day I have to get small things near as dammit millimetre perfect. So the concept of approaching much greater life decisions (not just airy-fairy physics stuff - Let's get away from that for a moment) not armed with my proverbial vernier callipers sounds like madness. And yet millions of people everyday lay down their ideas with obviously bent rulers. (as it were)

Maybe I'd be more open to religion if Jesus had included more carpentry based parables :P
Edited


Personally I don’t feel that the accepting the possibility of God creating the universe is equated to the abandonment of reasoning. Science and religion do not have to be at war with each other. Even some of the big bang theories have gaping holes in them (and no I can’t name them right now. Just a vague recollection of a documentary I watched on the history channel or national geographic channel some time ago) I believe that there are many people who accept the idea of a creator, not as a substitute for the elusive answer but as part of the equation. [I hope that makes sense somehow]

Maybe I’m just weird, or one of those exceptions to the ‘rule’ but I believe the dinosaurs were real. I don’t believe in evolution per say but I do believe in adaptation and that man as a species has changed over the millenniums.

I do believe there are some things that must be excepted solely on faith and that some things we will never know on this side; however, I do believe that we should always be willing and able to ask questions, search for answers, improve our minds and our understanding of the worlds around us.

God has given us the minds we have for a reason. Let us use them for the betterment of mankind as well as ourselves.

Now; totally off the subject. A model maker?! :D That sounds so cool. My husband does sci-fi models just as a hobby, and I’ve attempted a few of the kits (but never have the time to really apply myself). Nice bit of information about you.

Yeah, it would have been neat if he had used a few carpentry parables.

Thank you all.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Mar 2009 02:52

Eyes High wrote:Maybe I’m just weird, or one of those exceptions to the ‘rule’ but I believe the dinosaurs were real. I don’t believe in evolution per say but I do believe in adaptation and that man as a species has changed over the millenniums.


You sound quite intelligent, if you have trouble accepting evolution as a completely non-contradictory theory (and by theory I mean fact... :wink: ) with the hypothysis of a creator, could I suggest maybe reading some (Christian) Process Theology? You might find it really interesting, and I think it paints an image of a more believable, more logical, and impressive god - and (as far as I am able to comprehend, which is admittedly limited) it solves almost all of the problems of omnipitence/omniscience vs freewill, and the meaning of life and all that silly annoying stuff that is a big problem with classical theology. If I believed in a higher power it would be a higher power something like what John Hicks and other Process Theologians describe.

IMO - the only reason to not believe in evolution is to believe that god is messing with our data. :shock: I would personally find it more spiritual to accept that I am literally family with every living being on this planet than the other option. :D
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Postby SandChigger » 11 Mar 2009 04:45

Here's what I decided a while back regarding Eyes High:

She's a smart, nice lady, so I'll treat her like I treat the Christian members of my family: we just won't discuss certain topics. ;)

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Postby Schu » 11 Mar 2009 07:53

The "god of the gaps" issue I have mixed feelings about.

If anyone didn't have any particular religion beliefs, looked at physics (like Eyes High said, there are many many unexplained facets of physics, though there are far less than there used to be) and saw the gaps and then decided "hey, there's no solution. Obviously that means there must be a god and he did it" then I would gladly physically beat some sense into that person.

Same goes for "wow, life is so amazing and complex and balanced and perfect, it could only have been created by some god!"

But I don't really think that is why most religious people believe, and certainly not most religious people that I get along with. They may say that god explains the gaps in physics, and balances all the complex life, but that is not WHY they believe in god: they already believed in god before they thought that, for whatever reason (and there are many many many, even if I disagree strongly with all that I've heard, I at least can see that some of them could be convincing).

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Postby Schu » 11 Mar 2009 07:59

Oh, and my friend got elected, not the antagonist. And he went for vice-president too, but that's what I was going for, and I won that too. He ended up as treasurer. Means he gets no real power, but keeps him usefully busy :P

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Postby Mr. Teg » 11 Mar 2009 08:12

I don't feel that the idea of a creator and science has to be mutually exclusive.

However, with my background in neurobiology, I don't believe that granpa is waiting for me at the pearly gates, either.

The day you die is the end of your persona.
Lights out.

I think the next big step is extending life to 2-300 years like in Dune.

This would change pretty much everything, not to mention moving into space.

For example, if you can say travel to the nearest planet and back in 100 years, then it's not such a restriction anymore. And from there, the next one and so on...

(Personally, I'm very interested in space travel because our biology is organized around an adaption to gravity. So, exploring this will open new possiblities.)

That's my 2 yen...
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Postby SandChigger » 11 Mar 2009 09:29

Yeah, well, he didn't know everything, did he? Won't know if he was right until we try it and find out. :P

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Postby Schu » 11 Mar 2009 09:54

GamePlayer wrote:
Schu wrote:I'm glad to see similar sentiments here :)

Gameplayer - great post. I was really glad on joining the club 2 years ago that it isn't a "let's all hate the religious peeps" and it was genuinely just a social group of atheists (generally, reasonable ones). I'd hate for one of the minority of antagonistic types to be the one that "represents" us.


That sounds fine. It's basically like a bunch of christians or buddhists or even film geeks (smiles) just hanging out because they have something in common. That's the way it should be. I hope that militant atheist doesn't run the party. If he does, you should go after him with both barrels. Don't hold back and let the whole group know about his snake oil.


Actually, most of us in the atheist club are part of the "film geek" club too :D

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Postby SwordMaster » 11 Mar 2009 10:57

Baraka Bryan wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Yeah, well, he didn't know everything, did he?


fun fact:

Yes. He did.


I thought so too, till I read the end of foundation.
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Postby Eyes High » 11 Mar 2009 11:02

Schu wrote:Oh, and my friend got elected, not the antagonist. And he went for vice-president too, but that's what I was going for, and I won that too. He ended up as treasurer. Means he gets no real power, but keeps him usefully busy :P


Congratulations. I’m happy for you and your friend.


Thank you Thing and Sandchigger for the complements. I’ll try to check that theory out.

Mr. Teg. It will be something when we finally begin traveling to the stars. I just don’t know if it will happen during my life time.

Baraka Bryan wrote:

I don't adhere to the literal 7-day creation process (though I hold that God could have accomplished creation that way if he had wanted to), and rather like the interpretation of 'day' in the Bible as a period of time, and the use to evolution over that time to accomplish the diversity that exists today (and in the past). This allows for the proven age of the universe as well as a providential creator.

Edited


Yeah, that’s about how I believe. The 6 days in the Bible do not have to be the six days as we know it.

Hope everyone has a very nice day.
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Postby moreh_yeladim » 11 Mar 2009 14:46

SwordMaster wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.


hey thanks for your epic post dude! Isreal FTW!

Because it's so much better for a bunch of atheists to argue, bitch, and circlejerk over their ways of confront religious people while one religious person stands up for ignoring science than for people to just live their lives quietly believing in a religion, amirite?

I find it quite telling that whenever someone wants to discuss "religion" in general that person is an atheist or agnostic looking to start talking about what's wrong with religions.
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Postby SwordMaster » 11 Mar 2009 14:59

moreh_yeladim wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.


hey thanks for your epic post dude! Isreal FTW!

Because it's so much better for a bunch of atheists to argue, bitch, and circlejerk over their ways of confront religious people while one religious person stands up for ignoring science than for people to just live their lives quietly believing in a religion, amirite?

I find it quite telling that whenever someone wants to discuss "religion" in general that person is an atheist or agnostic looking to start talking about what's wrong with religions.


Im glad I was able to get you to post again. If you read the thread, you will notice most of us trying to point out the flaws in atheism, not religion. In fact if I could quote myself.

"Dawkins is too much of a militant atheist for my taste.

If you believe in any form of god your crazy - fuck THAT cocksucker."

A lot of us do not like that form of atheism.
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Postby Schu » 11 Mar 2009 15:07

moreh_yeladim wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.


hey thanks for your epic post dude! Isreal FTW!

Because it's so much better for a bunch of atheists to argue, bitch, and circlejerk over their ways of confront religious people while one religious person stands up for ignoring science than for people to just live their lives quietly believing in a religion, amirite?

I find it quite telling that whenever someone wants to discuss "religion" in general that person is an atheist or agnostic looking to start talking about what's wrong with religions.


Perhaps you could read this whole thread. What you post is totally against the spirit of it.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Mar 2009 15:18

moreh_yeladim wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.


hey thanks for your epic post dude! Isreal FTW!

Because it's so much better for a bunch of atheists to argue, bitch, and circlejerk over their ways of confront religious people while one religious person stands up for ignoring science than for people to just live their lives quietly believing in a religion, amirite?

I find it quite telling that whenever someone wants to discuss "religion" in general that person is an atheist or agnostic looking to start talking about what's wrong with religions.


Hey, I'll happily talk about what's right with relgions too. Has to go both ways for it to be a real conversation and not just a circle jerk (you're dead-on that it often goes that way though...).

If it'll get you talking I'll say (truthfully) that Judaisn is my favorite western religion, philosophically speaking (based on my very limited education). There are things I like about Islam and Christianity too though (but Christianity gets disqualified here, because all it's teachings that I agree with are just borrowed from Judaism).
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Postby moreh_yeladim » 11 Mar 2009 19:11

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.


hey thanks for your epic post dude! Isreal FTW!

Because it's so much better for a bunch of atheists to argue, bitch, and circlejerk over their ways of confront religious people while one religious person stands up for ignoring science than for people to just live their lives quietly believing in a religion, amirite?

I find it quite telling that whenever someone wants to discuss "religion" in general that person is an atheist or agnostic looking to start talking about what's wrong with religions.


Hey, I'll happily talk about what's right with relgions too. Has to go both ways for it to be a real conversation and not just a circle jerk (you're dead-on that it often goes that way though...).

If it'll get you talking I'll say (truthfully) that Judaisn is my favorite western religion, philosophically speaking (based on my very limited education). There are things I like about Islam and Christianity too though (but Christianity gets disqualified here, because all it's teachings that I agree with are just borrowed from Judaism).

Well you've got one thing outright wrong: we are not a Western religion. We are a Middle-Eastern religion many of whose followers happen to live in the West. Judeo-Christianity is actually an inaccurate grouping, Judeo-Islamic would be more correct.

A lot of us do not like that form of atheism.

Arguing against annoying extremist atheists does not mean one is arguing for religion in specific or in general.
Brian Herbert is a perfect example of why you shouldn't leave a universe-spanning empire to your next of kin.

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Postby Schu » 11 Mar 2009 23:21

moreh_yeladim wrote:
A lot of us do not like that form of atheism.

Arguing against annoying extremist atheists does not mean one is arguing for religion in specific or in general.


So? Do we have to argue for religion? I don't expect religious people to argue for atheism.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Mar 2009 02:23

moreh_yeladim wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:Wassup. Piping in as the second person here who actually believes in a religion. Being Jewish is fun.

And no, I'm not going to have a big debate with a bunch of ex-Christian atheists on precisely why or what I believe. If I want to get into debates over religion I can go to the Chabad House and get drunk while telling the blackhats they're full of it.


hey thanks for your epic post dude! Isreal FTW!

Because it's so much better for a bunch of atheists to argue, bitch, and circlejerk over their ways of confront religious people while one religious person stands up for ignoring science than for people to just live their lives quietly believing in a religion, amirite?

I find it quite telling that whenever someone wants to discuss "religion" in general that person is an atheist or agnostic looking to start talking about what's wrong with religions.


Hey, I'll happily talk about what's right with relgions too. Has to go both ways for it to be a real conversation and not just a circle jerk (you're dead-on that it often goes that way though...).

If it'll get you talking I'll say (truthfully) that Judaisn is my favorite western religion, philosophically speaking (based on my very limited education). There are things I like about Islam and Christianity too though (but Christianity gets disqualified here, because all it's teachings that I agree with are just borrowed from Judaism).

Well you've got one thing outright wrong: we are not a Western religion. We are a Middle-Eastern religion many of whose followers happen to live in the West. Judeo-Christianity is actually an inaccurate grouping, Judeo-Islamic would be more correct.


:? I know where it started, what planet do you think I was born on! :lol: Seriously though, it's perfectly common to call it a western religion in passing, though you are of course correct, Judaism and Christianity and Islam are middle-eastern. I call Islam a western religion as well, nothing wrong with that, it's west of the east. :wink: I call them west to distinguish from the eastern religions, it's just shorter to say.

I'm sorry if my slight longitudinal innacurracy is offensive, I'll call it a middle-eastern religion from now on if you prefer.

Why Judeo-Islamic more so than Judeo-Christian? I know you guys and Islam are both monotheist and as such would probably prefer to distance yourselves from the old three-headed Christian god(s)... but Christianity did start in pretty much the same place as Judaism, unless I am mistaken? Where are you going with that one?

P.s. just in case you're curious, I notice in your earlier post you say ex-Christian atheists... I'm not one of those, in case it somehow makes a difference?
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Mar 2009 02:37

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Eyes High wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:

I don't adhere to the literal 7-day creation process (though I hold that God could have accomplished creation that way if he had wanted to), and rather like the interpretation of 'day' in the Bible as a period of time, and the use to evolution over that time to accomplish the diversity that exists today (and in the past). This allows for the proven age of the universe as well as a providential creator.

Edited


Yeah, that’s about how I believe. The 6 days in the Bible do not have to be the six days as we know it.

Hope everyone has a very nice day.


i mean the writers of the Bible, though writing under divine inspiration, would still have to write from their own knowledge and 'scientific' understanding. things would necessarily be dumbed down when written down for how can our words explain the workings of God?

besides, it says the same word day for 'days' 1-3 and there was no sun at that point so the 24 hour day had no significance anyways...

I see the first day of "creating light" as the establishment of the laws of physics and universal constants etc...


Not at all meaning to be rude here, but why rationalize that story at all? It was oral for hundreds and hundreds of years, so probably was little like the original by the time it was finally written down. I don't know why that version of creation needs to be taken as anything more than an interesting moral lesson with some artistic flair used to explain the length of a week. Also, what about the other creation story that completely contadicts that one? I don't see why one is more legit than the other? :?

Honest questions, I'm not baiting anyone.
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