Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SwordMaster » 17 Apr 2009 14:16

Freakzilla wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:FZ is upset because he thinks he will pay more tax. He has not calculated his new refund yet but when he does he will still be mad at Obama because of the money being spent to save the economy from all out depression. The more I read of FZ the more clear it is how devided the nation is. Like he said Obama won by fairly small % those who did not vote for him, really did not want him to win. And he won. Tea Bags from Glen Beck to Sean Hannity. They seem so sad to cry about loosing. The party is not what the majority of the VOTING nation wants for leadership. Get over it! And those who dont vote have no fucking say in any of this because they are lazy idiots.


I did my taxes on February 1st, the day I got my W-2.

I paid $2,000 and got back $7,000. It's no wonder we're running up a trillion dollar debt yearly. If a corporation did business like that how long do you think they'd last?

We are not protesting because we are sore losers, I wish people could coprehend that.

We are protesting because we want a decent life for our children in this country.


I can understand that and I support protests and if you have ligitimate issues with the govt you have every right to protest.

But tell people to get guns and ammo to prepare for some kind of plan to destroy the legally elected govt... that is treason


That's exactly how this country started and if we don't like how out of control the government is we'll do it again.

The fact that so many people are ready to fight about this should be a warning sign to everyone.


It started because another empire was ruling over a new nation. It was not your govt at that time. This is your govt. This is your representation. You will get a new election in a few years and you get to change leadership if Obama fails. But does he not deserve the 4 year term that the election gave him>? After 4 years, let the people decide again? Im not sure what or who folks want to fight. Are you thinking about having Obama and other elected representation killed? and who will take over?
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Apr 2009 14:20

I think the things he said in Europe are treasonous.

See the Declaration of Independence, it is the right or the people to overthrow their government if it is unjust.

BTW, we were colonies, part of Great Brittain. It WAS our government, we just had no representation in it. That's what set us off.
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Apr 2009 15:29

Freak - You only paid 2K in income taxes? I paid $4200, but I'll prbably get at least 3-5 hundred back because I worked two different jobs last year, one much higher paid than the other, so when averaged out I was paying more taxes per month for the last 10 months than I should have been for my yearly tax bracket.
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Apr 2009 15:29

Freakzilla wrote:I think the things he said in Europe are treasonous.

See the Declaration of Independence, it is the right or the people to overthrow their government if it is unjust.

BTW, we were colonies, part of Great Brittain. It WAS our government, we just had no representation in it. That's what set us off.


What'd he say that was so bad?
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Apr 2009 15:39

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Freak - You only paid 2K in income taxes? I paid $4200, but I'll prbably get at least 3-5 hundred back because I worked two different jobs last year, one much higher paid than the other, so when averaged out I was paying more taxes per month for the last 10 months than I should have been for my yearly tax bracket.


I can't remember exactly, it may have been more. Some years I claim exemption because I get it all back. Some I take a few dependents off and use it as a sort of savings.
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Apr 2009 15:40

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the things he said in Europe are treasonous.

See the Declaration of Independence, it is the right or the people to overthrow their government if it is unjust.

BTW, we were colonies, part of Great Brittain. It WAS our government, we just had no representation in it. That's what set us off.


What'd he say that was so bad?


Apologizing for America's arrogance for one...
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SandRider » 17 Apr 2009 15:48

first off, you know goddamn good and well that the
phrases you underlined in the Declaration of Independence
were proved null and motherfucking void by the Lincoln Administration.

you know goddamn good and well that the constitution has not
been worth the paper it was scratched out on since January of 1861.

so if you're trying to cobble together some kind of justification for
the takedown of the federal government based on the founding
documents, you're barking up the wrong tree.

all I EVER hear you saying is that the US Federal government is not
militaristic, imperialist, fascist, or reactionary enough for you.

so yeah, based on my POV, you're a potential terrorist.

like it or not, you sound like Tim McVeigh.

and I'm almost sorry to be so harsh, because you know I mostly
respect you & like you a whole helluva lot. It frustrates me, because
for the most part you really seem like a very thoughtful and intelligent
person. You have expressed extremely liberal and progressive views
on most social & civil rights issues.

but then somehow Rush Limbaugh takes over your mind and you sound
like a raving lunatic. (and I should know from lunatics)

I'm not saying you should come over to the Left - I know you respect
the military, much, much more than I do. But I wish you get some
fucking balance.

I challenge you to watch a week's worth of Amy Goodman.

(Democracy Now! The War & Peace Report, every day on Freespeech TV
and LINK - check your cable or satellite schedule. Or visit them on the web
@ DemocracyNow.org & FreespeechTV.org)

peace & brotherhood,
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SandRider » 17 Apr 2009 15:51

and on the Topic, speaking of Tim McVeigh,
wasn't he a Desert Storm Veteran ?
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Apr 2009 16:28

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the things he said in Europe are treasonous.

See the Declaration of Independence, it is the right or the people to overthrow their government if it is unjust.

BTW, we were colonies, part of Great Brittain. It WAS our government, we just had no representation in it. That's what set us off.


What'd he say that was so bad?


Apologizing for America's arrogance for one...


So? That's not treason, does a leader have to pretend his country's shit don't stink? Admitting mistakes gains respect. I would hope he worded it carefully/respectfully though, like "some American's" or "many Americans" or some such so that he didn't include all the non-arrogant citizens in with the others.

EDIT: Not trying to be rude, I just don't follow.
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SadisticCynic » 17 Apr 2009 17:19

Who decides if a government is unjust?
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Apr 2009 17:50

SandRider wrote:first off, you know goddamn good and well that the
phrases you underlined in the Declaration of Independence
were proved null and motherfucking void by the Lincoln Administration.

you know goddamn good and well that the constitution has not
been worth the paper it was scratched out on since January of 1861.

so if you're trying to cobble together some kind of justification for
the takedown of the federal government based on the founding
documents, you're barking up the wrong tree.

all I EVER hear you saying is that the US Federal government is not
militaristic, imperialist, fascist, or reactionary enough for you.

so yeah, based on my POV, you're a potential terrorist.

like it or not, you sound like Tim McVeigh.

and I'm almost sorry to be so harsh, because you know I mostly
respect you & like you a whole helluva lot. It frustrates me, because
for the most part you really seem like a very thoughtful and intelligent
person. You have expressed extremely liberal and progressive views
on most social & civil rights issues.

but then somehow Rush Limbaugh takes over your mind and you sound
like a raving lunatic. (and I should know from lunatics)

I'm not saying you should come over to the Left - I know you respect
the military, much, much more than I do. But I wish you get some
fucking balance.

I challenge you to watch a week's worth of Amy Goodman.

(Democracy Now! The War & Peace Report, every day on Freespeech TV
and LINK - check your cable or satellite schedule. Or visit them on the web
@ DemocracyNow.org & FreespeechTV.org)

peace & brotherhood,
liberty and justice for ALL ....


I apreciate your opinion, I'm always for broadening my horizons.

But if that's your definition of a terrorist, so be it. How many times recently have I heard you liberals say that one country's terrorists are another's freedom fighters?
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Apr 2009 17:55

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think the things he said in Europe are treasonous.

See the Declaration of Independence, it is the right or the people to overthrow their government if it is unjust.

BTW, we were colonies, part of Great Brittain. It WAS our government, we just had no representation in it. That's what set us off.


What'd he say that was so bad?


Apologizing for America's arrogance for one...


So? That's not treason, does a leader have to pretend his country's shit don't stink? Admitting mistakes gains respect. I would hope he worded it carefully/respectfully though, like "some American's" or "many Americans" or some such so that he didn't include all the non-arrogant citizens in with the others.

EDIT: Not trying to be rude, I just don't follow.


America is not arrogant, it's a leader. That is not a mistake, and deserves no apology. I'm not saying we're always right but we try.

He obviously doesn't like our economic system, our laws, the glorious things our country has done in the world in the past and is doing everything in his power to bring us to ruin.

I wonder if Michelle is proud of her country now?
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SandRider » 17 Apr 2009 19:05

Freak wrote:He obviously doesn't like our economic system, our laws, the glorious things our country has done in the world in the past and is doing everything in his power to bring us to ruin.


this kind of bullshit is beneath refutation.

Freak wrote:How many times recently have I heard you liberals say that one country's terrorists are another's freedom fighters?


absolutely true, but I'd like to take up the "you liberals" issue (again)

let's all stop abusing that label, eh ? just fucking stop.

if by "liberals" you mean crazy left-wing extremists, socalists & marxists,
or even, g-d forbid, progressives, say so.

this is the most liberal nation ever founded on the face of the earth.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again :
if you don't like "liberalism", turn in your Bill of Rights, the most liberal
document ever written by men. What ? Freedom of Religion ?
Freedom of speech & assembly ? Freedom of the press ?

what kind of crazy hippie talk is that ?

by the same token, you'll not hear me talk about "conservatives" - if you're
comfortable with the status quo, good for you. You must not be in one of
the oppressed and unprivileged groups.

I'm pissed off at fascists & warmongers & the military industrial complex that
pushes the government into starting wars.
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Robspierre » 18 Apr 2009 02:55

Don't forget that now for the first time the true cost of military spending is actually being factored in, under the previous administration all war expenditures were special spending bills and NOT included in the budgets. Americans are not seeing the the real cost of the last eight years.

Also it wasn't taxation without representation, that is just propaganda, nope it was a tax reduction that helped set off the revolution, the British government lowered tax on tea brought to the colonies by the EIC and there for undercut the profits of local shipping magnates. Other issues arose that further fueled the flames.

Sorry Freak, but right now conservatives are acting like the biggest bunch of sore losers, doing nothing but whining like a bunch of spoiled little bitches instead of actually trying to do something about fixing the fuck ups they helped bring about.

Rob

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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Schu » 18 Apr 2009 11:32

I have to say, FreakZ, when you said "you liberals" I was kinda reminded of a lot of the times Hypatia has said "you OH" - firstly, as if it's meant to be some kind of an intrinsically bad thing, second, amusing since Hypatia does indeed dislike McDune and you generally have pretty liberal ideas, and thirdly, with the kind of misapprehension that Hypatia has about what most OHers actually think and that every last person that identifies as OH must conform to her misapprehension. I know you don't really think that (and believe it or not, but I don't think Hypatia does either) but it seems to be the prevalent knee-jerk.

Oh no, I just did this board's equivalent of argumentum ad Hitlerium, argumentum ad Hypatium.

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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SandRider » 18 Apr 2009 12:27

there were several signs that showed up at the TeaBaggings
all around the country, another indication of the organized,
manufactured nature of the event.

one said "Proud To Be A Right-Wing Extremist"
but the scariest and most offensive:

"The American Tax Payers are the Jews for Obama's Oven."

now, I said some mean shit about G.W. Bush, but damn ...
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Ampoliros » 18 Apr 2009 12:52

FOX is brilliant at taking the one case and exploiting it. Tim McVeigh justifies Napolitano's suggestion: Extremists, Secessionists, and God-Compound Cults will see these people as potential recruits. I won't be surprised when we see disgruntled ex- or failed- military people joining them and co-conspiring. I also won't be surprised when patriotic Iraq war veterans become heroes twice-over by turning these people in for attempting to recruit them into terrorism. (NOT MUSLIM TERRORISTS) BTW, whats the political breakdown of the military. Is it 100% conservative? even 80%. No, there are NON-CONSERVATIVE PATRIOTS in the military, fighting just as hard.

In this new conservative revolution, what will be the place of the moderate public? Will we be allowed to retain our rights, asked kindly to leave, or detained and eventually lined up and shot as suspected liberals (since liberals are basically nazis)? Do you think Americans should be required to sign allegiance contracts to uphold the constitution? (Which interpretation?) Will non-born again Christians have religious rights in this "Christian Nation".

I'm sorry am I using too broad a brush? Because the people I see the most fired up about this (Even more than you Freak) won't stop to bother if they are steamrolling people's rights if those people aren't like them.

The recent rescue of the Captain by the Navy SEALS is a good example. Sure some people might think it was brutal. I salute those SEALS, they saved a man's life. If there had been a non-lethal way to solve it they would have found it and it would have been preferable, but I have no problem with them resolving it with 3 well trained snipers. While the pirates reacted in anger no doubt they will soon find that attacking a US flagged ship will be guaranteeing them a bullet in the brain. I'm pretty sure Napolitano was not suggesting that those guys are potential terrorists just because they are in the military. They are the kind of soldiers who would come home, and if approached would be the most likely to turn someone in. Some Fundamentalist Christian kid, or even Young Muslim or Jew could serve 4 years in the Army, get military training and access, and then be brainwashed by a White-supremacist, extremist mullah, Israeli paramilitary organization, or even the Animal Liberation Front into their extremist views. Now you have someone young, stupid and trained to kill in the hands of a dangerous organization. I'm sure the military had means of weeding these people out before and during their military career as well.

We're all here because we fell in love with Frank Herbert's books and philosophy. Where do you think he would be in this movement? I think he would whole-heartedly apply the "charismatic danger" to BOTH Obama and FOX. I would think he would consider FOX as more dangerous, they aren't elected to their position (they are a private for-profit business, like all media)
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SwordMaster » 18 Apr 2009 20:55

SandRider wrote:there were several signs that showed up at the TeaBaggings
all around the country, another indication of the organized,
manufactured nature of the event.

one said "Proud To Be A Right-Wing Extremist"
but the scariest and most offensive:

"The American Tax Payers are the Jews for Obama's Oven."

now, I said some mean shit about G.W. Bush, but damn ...


Hey I posted a pic of it did you se it? How about all the kids holding up signs? That is weird for so many reasons but the main one being it was a school day! LOL
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SwordMaster » 18 Apr 2009 20:59

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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Eyes High » 18 Apr 2009 22:01

SwordMaster wrote:
SandRider wrote:there were several signs that showed up at the TeaBaggings
all around the country, another indication of the organized,
manufactured nature of the event.

one said "Proud To Be A Right-Wing Extremist"
but the scariest and most offensive:

"The American Tax Payers are the Jews for Obama's Oven."

now, I said some mean shit about G.W. Bush, but damn ...


Hey I posted a pic of it did you se it? How about all the kids holding up signs? That is weird for so many reasons but the main one being it was a school day! LOL


Well I know for schools in my area they were out for Spring Break. (or what we use to call Easter Break)
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby trang » 18 Apr 2009 23:50

SwordMaster wrote:And those who dont vote have no fucking say in any of this because they are lazy idiots.


Not really on topic,but:

I beg to differ, and you are entitled to your opinion, but the right to abstain is as valid as voting. I have as valid or more valid opinion as any other voter.. and Abstaining is part of the Voter's right, even if it isnt an option, which it isnt, on the ballots.

the "I", not meaning myself, but the abstaining parties out there. They have the right to vote, write ins and what ever the choose, but abstaining is valid and worthy.

If you ask someone why the abstained, I bet you get an earful, more so than the rank and file party lemmings. I think you will find Abstainer's to be very free thinking and open minded folk. I bet you will find them not wanting or feeling like they are part of a category or demographic.

Im sure they're are just as many free thinking people in the party line, just making a point.

I still have to read the rest of the thread to post on topic, just want to slip that in.

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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby trang » 19 Apr 2009 00:37

WOW, SR that was some rough blunt speech!!! You let it go dont ya:) hell you wouldnt be you if you didnt:)

I was a little confused though when you were barking at FZ about the constitution not being worth the paper it is written on since 1861 yet in couple post later you talk about the Bill of rights and so forth?? Contradiction?

I would refer you to article 5 of that document that I hold dear, that makes it very valid and flexible and worthy to this day.

I think the word "conservative" needs to stop meaning some dam pigeonhole. I am conservative in my views, but thats ALL VIEWS. I think it means more moderation than some right wing extreme thing. I think Rush Limbaugh, Shaun Hannity, Carl Rove and a few others get pretty thick most the time, if not down right stupid. THESE FOLKS DO NOT REPRESENT WHAT IS CONSERVATIVE, you cant be an extremist and be conservative they are a contradiction!

I spread butter on a piece of bread conservativly, not liberally. Does that make me a Extremist? if you do the opposite does it make you one? No.

wow now back to the topic, FZ I dont think your a terrorist:) I think your very firm in your convictions and thats cool. I would say that in any potentional group (military, non military, doesnt matter, could be boys scouts or girls scouts for peat sake) for a spoiled apple or two. Whether this apple draws arms against his country, Im not sure how you can predict that, I dont think you can. I do know they can TRACK that... people do things and leave a trail, where ever they go, what ever they do, returning verteran, or coffe shop worker, doesnt matter. Certain behaviors are common and make you stand out, even if your not trying to. THAT is gonna get you on the HOT LIST. Also stated, no matter how much we prepare, if there are people who are highly motivated and want to do something, they will find the will and the means and the way, not matter what we do!

So however this statement of potential terrorists got made, stated, distributed, is really irresponsible IMHO. Stupid generalizations are just that, STUPID, although can cause a war in some circumstances, without even trying.

As for obama, well his spending spree has me a little unhinged, but I will give him benefit of the doubt, for now. All I can do is call it when I see it! I think everyone forgets that he is politically an infant compared to the rest of washington.... I think he has a lot to learn, how to dance the dance, and will sharpen up here soon enough, for better or worse. I give it to the man over bush, he is much better at speaking in public. Bush looked like he two wild badgers were fighting in his pants every time he came up to the podium... ridiculas.

Im with FZ dont like that less than half the registered voters voted in this guy, rule thru small groups instead of majority.

And just for the record,FOX NEWS, is irresponsible, Period.

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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby SadisticCynic » 19 Apr 2009 07:25

trang wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:And those who dont vote have no fucking say in any of this because they are lazy idiots.


Not really on topic,but:

I beg to differ, and you are entitled to your opinion, but the right to abstain is as valid as voting. I have as valid or more valid opinion as any other voter.. and Abstaining is part of the Voter's right, even if it isnt an option, which it isnt, on the ballots.

the "I", not meaning myself, but the abstaining parties out there. They have the right to vote, write ins and what ever the choose, but abstaining is valid and worthy.

If you ask someone why the abstained, I bet you get an earful, more so than the rank and file party lemmings. I think you will find Abstainer's to be very free thinking and open minded folk. I bet you will find them not wanting or feeling like they are part of a category or demographic.

Im sure they're are just as many free thinking people in the party line, just making a point.

I still have to read the rest of the thread to post on topic, just want to slip that in.

Trang


:clap:

In other news I recall reading an article in New Scientist that suggested the results of a vote are rarely one-sided i.e. say 48% for Group A and 49% and the remaining 3% for other smaller Groups. This puts an interesting spin on whether voting in the (wo)man that you think is best really satisfies the populace.
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Seraphan » 19 Apr 2009 10:37

I agree with Trang in that Abstaining is valid, i dont have to choose between the lesser of two evils, in fact i think that's a mentality that narrows not only views but actions as well. It often serves as a common excuse that often brings out injuries without anyone willing to accept responsibility: "It was either him or the devil".
In my part i'm for anarchy, it simply means a society without leaders. It's not about chaos or rebellion or any of that bullshit those teens wearing the anarchy symbol on their jackets spout out of their malcontended mouths. Also dont think that anarchy is about "each for themselves"; if your not aware of each other and sencible then it's chaos.
I'm not naive however, to think that human beings can reach such a state imidiatly. Too many seek power over others and too many are willing to give their decision making to the sound of comforting promises.

In the next elections here in Portugal, i'm not going to vote for anyone. I'm particularly against not only every single political party, but against the way politics and the managing of this country is handled.

SM, abstaining your vote has alot more to it than the idea that people are just too lazy to vote.
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"The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand." - Frank Herbert
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Freakzilla
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Re: Iraq Veterans are terrorists - Janet Napolitano

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Apr 2009 13:13

I swore my life to defending that worthless piece of paper, it means a lot to me.

BTW, I don't remember it saying anywhere that voting is a "right". There is no Constitutionally protected right to vote in America.

In Bush v. Gore, the case in which the court decided to end all recounts in Florida during the aftermath of the 2000 presidential election, effectively declaring George W. Bush president, the court said:

"...the individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States." (Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98, 104)

The actual situation is that each state is allowed to determine its own methods of running elections. The only limitations on the states are that they cannot discriminate in administering elections on the basis of race (15th amendment), sex (19th amendment) or age (26th amendment). In fact, the word "vote" is only mentioned in the Constitution in relation to these non-discrimination amendments. Nowhere does the Constitution explicitly give every citizen the affirmative right to vote.
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